Expert: Jamie Yocono - 4/13/2008

Question
QUESTION: Hello.  I have a small business and am fixing up a break room for my employees.  I need table space for eating, but the room is too small and narrow; I thought a counter/ledge along one wall would work instead (also visually appealing since there would be no table legs taking up floor space).  The run of the counter would only  be ~8-1/2 feet in length.
My questions: how deep can this counter be? (I was thinking ~16"--what do you think?).  And most important, what support is needed (which takes up the least, precious space)?  I was thinking a ledger board screwed to the wall along the back edge; don't know about front.
Do you have any guidance, or better ideas for my needs?...Thank you so much and my very best to you.

J Cummings

ANSWER: Hi J,

What a great question, I'll try to help.

First, your idea of a wall hung cleat is on the right track. That will give you perfect support along the back. As far as the front edge, as long as the counter top itself is reinforced with a strong horizontal apron on the front edge (slightly recessed under the top), I think you still might need a single leg, perhaps in the middle of that top, at the 4' mark, since you said the table might be 8' long.

As far as how deep the countertop should be, according to most design experts, the absolute minimum dimension is 12", 16 would be fine, and 18 would allow shared items to be placed against the wall, like napkin dispensers, salt and pepper shakers, condiments, etc.

I reread your question, trying to decide if the table will be able to be supported on both ends. That means - will it run the entire length of the room, end to end? If so, you can put cleats on the two sides of the top. That means the top will be supported on the long back edge, and the two short edges. With a stiff front apron that beefs up that front edge and keeps it from flexing, I think you "might" be OK without any front legs, but without seeing the exact room, it's hard to say for certain.

As a designer, this is a dream project, and I have a couple of suggestions. If space is tight, why not consider a table that hinges into place, with a long piano hinge connecting it to that wall cleat? You could orient the hinge so the top flips up, flat against the wall, or hinges down, low along the wall. If it hinges down, flat against the wall, gravity would keep it in place, a simple solution. But if you flip the top upward to "store" it, you could have some sort of locking catch up on the top, so it won't accidentally flop down and clobber someone.

What about that one leg in the center?  No problemo!  It could pivot down from the front apron. So everything folds away when the table is flat against the wall, but when it's flipped up (or down) into it's proper orientation, the leg could pivot down and lock into place.  Sort of how a leg works on a foldaway table.

Like I said, there are a lot of ways this table could be designed, and it really depends if you're going to leave the counter stationary, or if you intend on making it able to be folded out of the way.  I know I expounded on this a bit, but like I said, it's a pretty interesting design question.  I'd LOVE to work on a little project like this.

Good luck, it's not too difficult, and your employees will love you for it! Write back if you have any other questions,

Jamie Yocono
www.wooditis.com
Las Vegas, NV

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Dear Jamie Yocono,
Well, can I just say you rock?!  Your comments are all so great, and so appreciated!

I don't want to pester you, but I thought I'd throw out a couple additional things:  (1) to answer your question--no, the counter would not be supported at either end by wall cleats.  There is a door (entry to the room) at one end.  The other end abuts a perpendicular counter.  (2) although I LOVE your idea of a hinging counter, my counter will get heavy use all day, and would not be out of use that much........

OK, a couple final Q's: What do you think of some kind of brackets for support?  Obviously, one at either end; don't know how many others needed. This occurred to me at Container Store earlier today, where I saw a variation of this:  http://www.containerstore.com/browse/Product.jhtml?CATID=77774&PRODID=10016835
It just got me to thinking about brackets.  And since one issue begats another, I got to thinking about maybe putting a shallower shelf/above the "eating" counter to hold condiments, etc. (that way, I could still have the 16" depth for the main counter).

Finally, what would you recommend for the counter? Formica (with a beefed up apron, as you said) or solid wood, etc?

OK, I've taken up enough of your time.  Any comments or thoughts would be appreciated.  Otherwise, thank you again for the help you've already given me.
Jana

ANSWER: Hey Jana,

Glad that I could help you out, like I said - it's a great design question.  I'll try to help a bit more with your last two questions.

I think the ideal thing you need is shelf support hardware that disappears under the counter tops you want to install. There are a lot of things out there that will help you,  and here are a few links to some specific shelf supports that you can use:

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?Offerings_ID=10551&TabSelect=Details

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=126

As far as your last question about the workstation counter top, the one that is 25" deep. You said it's supported in the back and both ends, which is good. But that top is probably particle board or MDF, and it will sag. So you need to beef it up. I would probably try something like 1 x 3, attached vertically, as a front apron. You can recess it slightly, like 3" back from the front edge, so it will virtually disappear.

Let me give you a quick lesson about wood and it's strength. Wood is stronger vertically (on it's skinny edge) than horizontally, on it's flat face. To get an idea of what I mean, lay a board flat on the ground, and  prop up each end by a brick or something that will raise it off the ground a couple of inches. Step in the middle of that board, and it will flex down and probably touch the ground where you're standing. But turn that board on it's 3/4" edge and try standing on it, and it won't flex. Wood is very strong vertically, but not flat. So when you attach an apron, attach it so that it's vertical, and your front edge won't sag at all.

OK, with that in mind, your 7'3" counter top will probably be OK if you apply an apron on the front edge, and one or two of the shelf supports (listed above) somewhere under the top.

The same thing goes for the other top, the 16" deep top in the break room. These supports will virtually disappear under the top, meaning you won't have a leg get in the way. Sweet.

I feel confidant that adding these two things (shelf supports and a front apron) will beef up both of these counter tops enough that you won't need legs.

OK, hope this helps. I'm heading out with friends for an early dinner, so if you write back, I probably won't answer it until tomorrow. Hope this helps! Glad I could help.

Jamie Yocono
Wood It Is! Custom Cabinetry
Las Vegas, NV
www.wooditis.com
My woodworking blog: www.wooditis.blogspot.com


---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Dear Jamie,
OK, that's it.  I want to marry you.:)  Don't know if you're a man or woman; at this point, I don't care....
Thank you so much for your assistance.  You've really cleared up my nagging questions about the project--I'm excited about it!
Thanks again, and my very, very best to you...

Jana

Answer
Hey Jana,

That's too funny, I nearly fell off my chair when I read what you wrote.  Thanks for the nice words, I'm glad I could help you out.

Something else dawned on me. There's a very cool company in Long Beach, California, called Doug Mockett & company, and they make awesome hardware for furniture and home applications. I use their wooden wheels all the time for my furniture, they're gorgeous.

Anyway, I remembered they have some shelf supports that might work for you. They're a little pricey, but very cool. Not sure what your budget is, but if you want to dress up the project (break room) a bit, you might want to look at these. Here's a link:

http://www.mockett.com/default.asp?id=4¶m=gzCart_products.CategoryID&data=SW

The nice thing about their hardware is that much of it is designed by regular people like you and me. They hold design contests every year for people to submit ideas for stuff they want Mockett to manufacture. And if you win, you get a prize, plus a cut of the profits, I think. Anyway, it's a great company with a really good philosophy, so I thought I would mention them to you. When you go to the page from that link, click on the "work surface supports" tab. Lot's o' shelf support stuff there.

OK, hope that helps. FYI, I'm female, and my girlfriend cracked up at your comment.  :)  I think it's a hoot that most of the people on All-Experts just assume I'm a guy... like only guys know about woodworking... doh!

Good luck,

Jamie Yocono
www.wooditis.com
Las Vegas, NV