Expert: Jamie Yocono - 2/22/2005

Question
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Followup To
Question - Jamie, I found mini 26mm hinges at Blum and ordered them Monday.  Now, I'll have the problem of making sure I mount them in the right place to have the door close flush on all sides.  I also will have to notch out the faceframe to allow the hinge plate to be attached to the wall of the cabinet.  Once I get the hinges and experiment a little, I'll decide if I need that filler strip, depending on how much clearance I get from the wall.

I'm then going to construct the vanity.  Of course it's not a sqare or a rectangle...that would be too easy.  I've decided to make the vanity on an angle.  It will be the same depth as the floor to ceiling cabinet (10 1/2"), and angle at about 16 degrees to end up 25 1/2" on the right side.  I am going to make the doors solid, so I won't have the problem I did with the tall cabinet doors.

Now, I think I have another problem though.  While looking at the Blum pdf handbook, I noticed negative angle hinges, and I'm glad I saw those before ordering 4 more of the mini hinges to use on the vanity doors.  Should I worry about this or should I mount some kind of piece of wood so the hinge only needs to close at 90 degrees.  Another way I was thinking about was to make the vanity doors inset, then I could mount the hinge going from the inside rear of the face frame across the gap and to the door.  That way, I wouldn't have to try to figure out these negative angle hinges.  The diagram in the Blum pdf manual is daunting and looks very complicated.  What are your thoughts?
As always, thank you for your time.
Mike  
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Followup To
Question - Jamie, thank you for your efforts.  I put the cabinet in place last night and thought I could use a filler between the wall and the cabinet.  That would eliminate the need for the hinge to pull in before opening.  Simple right?  My girlfriend had suggested using a piano hinge.  What do you think about that?
To give you some background. The base I built is 18" wide from the wall and somehow I didn't figure the 1 1/2" for the thickness of the two sides when I put the cabinet together.  Anyway, that gives me the 1 1/2" to move the cabinet over away from the wall giving me the room to be more flexible with the type of hinges.  Now, question...do I HAVE to use euro hinges and if I do what is the main reason?  They are full overlay, but I think the piano hinge would work fine.  What are your thoughts?
And one more, now I will have a space between the wall and the cabinet where I was going to just put a 3/8" spacer plywood with construction adhesive.  Maybe you remember me asking about this.  Do I need to have any kind of support between the cabinet and wall if I use the spacer?  The cabinet will be screwed into the 2x4 base that is screwed to the concrete, and I will be able to screw into a stud through three nailers.  I would think this would supply ample anchoring...don't you?
I'm still going to check for smaller euro hinges this week.  If I can get them, great, if not, I'll have to come up with something else.  The only negative I can see with the piano hinges is they would not allow the door to shut tight against the face frame.  Again, your thoughts.
Thank you so much for your efforts!
Mike
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Followup To
Question - Jamie, Your answer is phenomenal!  Ok, let me answer some of your ?'s.  I believe it is a full overlay.  When the door is closed, it is on the outside of the faceframe and flush with all cabinet sides. The doors are the same dimensions as the faceframe. The problem I have is that the door has to open to the left and there is a wall there.  I built the cabinet so the faceframe comes to the edge of the new 12" tile I put on the wall.  The door will be 3/4" past (thickness of wood) the front of the cabinet, and when the door opens, I need it to pull in and away from the wall so the corner doesn't rub.  That is why I think I need the euro hinges. I am in Ft Myers, FL.  I thought I was up a creek too, until my girlfriend asked if there was anything smaller available.  I never even thought about that.  She's great like that.  The doors and faceframe are made of aspen, and the cabinet box is that blondewood plywood I told you about in a previous email.  
As for sending you numbers, this whole thing is being designed in my head.  I'm using my basic cabinet-making skills I got in VoTech back in the 70's along with pocket hole joinery to put it together.  Once I used the pocket hole jig from Kregg for another project, that's when I decided I could design and build my cabinets for this bathroom.  It's a fantastic tool, and makes squaring and joining wood so easy.  The thing that has taken the most time is the finishing and matching the woods.  It wasn't something I thought of when choosing materials.  Anyway, it looks great, but there are a couple bumps along the way.  I thought the design and dimensions were well thought out, but now this situation with the hinges brings another delay.  I'm sure with your help and my determination, it will all work out.  I would like to send you a picture when it is done so you can see how your advice has worked.
Thanks again,
Mike
Hi Jamie,  It's been awhile.  I want to install 110 degree euro hinges on my floor to ceiling cabinet I spoke w/ you about on 12/13/04.  I was all set to do this when I noticed the diameter of the hole to be drilled in the door was 35mm.  Problem is my door frames are only 1 1/2" wide x 3/4 thick.  The 35mm hole is almost the same size.  I also have to cut a rabbit on the inside of the door frame to put a piece of glass in there.  Are there smaller diameter cup sizes in euro hinges?  I got these at Home Depot and figure they wouldn't have as much selection as a specialty shop.  
I did go on line and look, but I am too confused about the technical jargon.  I was told to use the 110 degree because when the door is opened, I need it to come away from the wall it is next to, so the door opens all the way.
Do I need to use the euro hinges or is there something else out there?
Thanks in advance Jamie
Mike
Answer -
Hi Mike,

When I receive a question like yours on this All-Experts site, I have a list of options to click on. One of the options is "Sorry, this is out of my area of expertise and I just can't help with this" and I sure was tempted to use that option when I read your question. I'm stumped.

In fact, I read your question last night and decided to sleep on it before answering. I was hoping that some idea would come to me. But Mike, given your circumstances, I think you're in a jam with few solutions.

As far as I know, there are no cup hinges out there that are smaller than the standard euro hinge at 35 mm. I have 2 huge hardware catalogs that I use exclusively, and as my salesman says- if the hardware isn't in those books, it's just not available.  I've looked in both, and sure can't locate anything in a cup style that's going to work.

So the second option is to find a different hinge that will work. You didn't mention if your door is a full overlay or half overlay, and I think that's an important detail when trying to find a hinge alternative. There are a few specialty hinges that are made for odd situations, and I found something that MIGHT work, but I'm only guessing. I'm looking at it in a catalog, but since I don't know the overlay details of your doors, I can't know for certain.

Grass makes a hinge called a Grade 1 hinge for Phenolic Board. Now I'm not sure why a hinge would be designed around a certain material; I would think the screws would be the significant detail. Like - if you're using MDF, you use a coarse screw rather than a fine one. So the hinge would be the same; the only thing that would change would be the screws. And I just poked around the Grass site, looking for that product and cannot find it anywhere.

I've also found a 90 degree surface mounted hinge- in the description, it says- "achieve that clean European look without boring the cabinet door" so it looks like there are a few hinges out there that might work for you. The catalog doesn't say who makes it, or I would send you a link to their website. But they're fully adjustable, which is a plus.

OK- so here I was thinking you were up a creek without a paddle. Now that I do some research, I see that you do have a few options. Here's a suggestion- do you know of a cabinet shop in your area that might be willing to let you look through their hardware catalogs? Since I don't know where you are, I will tell you this- Baer Supply is a huge supplier on the east coast. And Louis and Company is a huge supplier on the west coast. Depending on where you live, any decent cabinet shop in your area should have one of their catalogs.

My best suggestions would be- find a catalog, locate the hinge you need, and ask the cabinet shop to order them for you. I do not think these are items you are going to find at Lowes, home Depot, or even Rockler. They are odd hinges, and not normally stocked.

That's as best as I can do, Mike. If you do a little research and have some questions, feel free to write back. If I can help at all, let me know. If all else fails- find out some part numbers and I'll see if I can order anything for you.

Good luck. You have some work ahead of you.

Jamie Yocono
Wood It Is! Custom Cabinetry
www.wooditis.com
Las Vegas, NV

Answer -
Mike,

I belong to an organization called the Furniture Society, which has a huge membership of woodworkers across the country. I did a quick search to see if I could find a cabinetmaker in your area. I found one, but he's really more of a sculptor, so I'm thinking he really doesn't use hardware that much.

You can view their site at: www. furnituresociety.org. It's an interesting site to poke around and see what other people are building.

Anyway, if you do a little research and find those hinges you need, I'll keep looking to find someone in your area that might be able to order them for you.

Keep in touch, and good luck with your project. It sounds great.
Answer -
Mike,

I think a piano hinge might be over kill as far as your hinge dilemma is concerned. The real reason to use Euro hinges is for the adjustablility that they have. When the door sags from it's own weight, or from someone leaning on it over time, you're going to want to adjust it back into place. Why do you think our parents yelled at us for hanging/leaning on the kitchen cabinet doors when we were kids? Hinges eventually bend and then- the door doesn't hang properly.

The Euro hinge does 2 things, actually. It not only allows adjust it when the door sags, but it also allows you to install it quite easily, which is a huge plus. Hanging doors is a pain, and as a cabinetmaker, I can't afford to waste a lot of time on it.

I think you misunderstood me, I am pretty sure you're not going to be able to find any Euro hinges that are smaller than the standard 35 mm cup size. I mentioned that one Grass hinge, but that is not a cup hinge. So you're probably going to come up with blanks if you go searching out a Euro hinge with a smaller cup.

Which takes me back to your Piano hinge question. A piano hinge is probably too much hinge for your situation. And they're pretty hard to install, in my opinion. Sure, there are some newer versions where the screw holes are elongated, so that they become somewhat adjustable. But- it's just too much hinge for the situation. Better yet- look around and find a pair of no-mortise hinges. The are made of a thinner metal, so that it's not necessary to remove any wood in order for the door to sit flush. Plus- the no-mortise hinges sometimes have slotted holes, which makes them somewhat adjustable.

Try pasting this in your browser to see what these hinges look like:

http://www.woodcraft.com/depts.aspx?DeptID=2217&FamilyID=2188

OK, I think your last question is about the filler strip. This piece isn't really doing much but sitting there; it bears no weight, right? It's probably fine to simply glue it in place. If you're worried, you could put a brad or two into it (into the drywall) to keep it from moving, but really- the adhesive will be fine.

You're really on the right track, Mike. Don't run out of steam. Sounds like your cabinet is going to be great. When you finish it, send me a JPEG at:  jamie@wooditis.com. Can't wait to see it.

Good luck, I hope this helps. Feel free to write back with any other questions you might have after reading this.

Jamie Yocono
Wood It Is! Custom Cabinetry
www.wooditis.com
Las Vegas, NV


Answer
Mike-

I didn't totally understand what you were asking me in your last All-Experts question. I see that you found some smaller cup hinges from Blum. I just looked at Blum's website and couldn't find any mention of those. Do you have a part # to which I can refer? I found 4 or 5 varieties within their hinge family, but nothing about 26 mm cups.

As far as negative angle hinges, I am stumped on that one. Send me more information or give me a link to the PDF and I will try to help with an answer.

Jamie