Expert: Jamie Yocono - 12/19/2004

Question
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Followup To
Question -
I am building a floor to ceiling cabinet in the bathroom.  I made the base out of 2x4's, so I have a 3 1/2" toe kick. It's mounted to the concrete floor with tapcons.  I started building the case with 3/4 finished plywood.  The cabinet is 84 1/2" tall, 18" wide and 10 1/2" deep.  My question is whether it is necessary to permanently install a shelf in the center of the cabinet or will the face frame be enough support for the case?  Also, I've already assembled the case using pocket hole joinery, and realized I should have predrilled the shelf support holes on the insides of case before assembling.  Could you suggest a jig I can use from the front and back to space these holes?  I saw somewhere that pegboard was used for a template...any ideas?
One more item, I have to place 3/8 plywood between the cabinet side and the wall as a spacer, is it ok to just attach it with construction adhesive?  That plywood won't be supporting anything.
And still one more item.  Will I need two nailer boards across the back...one at the center and one at the top, or will I need more?  
Answer -
Hi Mike,

Long answer- grab a cup of coffee and put your feet up!

I had to reread your question a couple of times; I think I understand all of the questions you've asked, so I'll try to help out. I just built a couple of floor to ceiling bookcases in my living room, as well as building 3 more for customers, so I'm pretty familiar with your method of construction.

Just a beginning thought- my biggest problem at one house was that I didn't have room to stand the tall cabinet upright in the room without damaging the ceiling. So make sure you're going to be able to stand that thing upright! If it's made as a "box" separate from the 2 x 4 base, you'll be fine.

1) Yes, I would permanently install a center shelf, as the face frame probably isn't enough to hold an 18" wide cabinet together, especially since it's so tall. The center shelf doesn't even have to be exactly in the center, it can be higher or lower, but you need something roughly in the middle to hold those long sides together and keep them from bowing. I usually put my center shelf about 30-36" above the floor, so it roughly lines up with the counter height. Just a suggestion, but go with what looks best.

2) I often drill my shelf pin holes while the cabinet is apart, but there are times when I need to add a set of holes. So there are many times when I do it onsite. I have a Veritas shelf jig (www.leighvalley.com) for drilling a lot of holes, but if I only need a set or two, I don't even use the jig.

Here are my thoughts about that. I don't drill holes all the way up the side of a cabinet. I only drill a set of holes, giving only 2-3 inches of adjustability per shelf. There's just no reason to drill them every inch. Next, if I have to drill a set of 4 holes for a shelf, I generally mark my spot using a piece of scrap plywood as a jig. I'll mark the holes, drill them using some sort of a stop collar on my bit, to ensure that I don't pop through the good side, and usually I'm pretty close. It only takes 3 holes to form the "plane" that a shelf rests upon, so 3 of the shelf pins will always be right on, the fourth one will be the one that is out of alignment and causes it to rock. So a little trick of the trade- the shelf pins can be slightly rotated in their holes, thereby touching the shelf and lending it's support. If you have a rocking shelf, look at the shelf pins and determine which one is causing the imbalance. Rotate that pin a bit and the shelf will stop rocking.

Another thought- some people do, indeed, use pegboard as a drilling guide. Cut up a sheet and it'll give you a lifetime of jigs. But I don't like using it because the pegboard material usually just starts to fray and fall apart after drilling just a few holes, so I prefer not to use it. Just my opinion.  If you drill a lot of holes, you might want to check out that Veritas jig....expensive, but worth it.

3) About that spacer- since it's not supporting anything, I don't think it's that big of a deal. Construction adhesive will probably be just fine. To be certain, you could mount it to the wall, but since your cabinet is only 10 1/2" deep, you probably won't find a stud where you need it. You could try anchors or toggles, but really- it's probably overkill. Glue should just be fine.

4) Last thing- as far as nailer boards, I like to use 3. Top, bottom, and underneath the middle shelf. When you anchor it in those three places, that cabinet isn't going anywhere. Period!

Good luck, I hope this helps. Feel free to write back with any other questions you might have after reading this.

Jamie Yocono
Wood It Is! Custom Cabinetry
Las Vegas, NV

Jamie,
Thank you for your excellent answers to my questions.  I wish everyone was so thorough and specific to each question as you were.  Follow up to above...the cabinet is a separate box.  How would you attach the floor to the anchored base?  I would imagine with screws, but should I just countersink or should they be plugged?  Also, using pocket hole joinery, is it necessary to also glue the joints?
The following has to do with sanding and finishing.  I see you ask not to have refinishing questions, but this is initial finishing.  If these finishing questions are what you are referring to in your instructions, could you point me in the right direction?
I am using 3/4 blondewood plywood for the sides, top and bottom.  It is somewhat finished on both sides.  After preliminary sanding with a finishing sander, I see there are still some imperfections and not a completely smooth surface.  I remember something about raising the grain with water, but I need details about how to do it, i.e. how long, with a cloth, etc.  I did sand the faceframe already and used a damp cloth to just touch up some spots and it worked well.  What grit sandpaper would you use to start out?  I am using 120 and then 240.  Is this fine enough?  I will then polyurathane it and use steel wool between coats w/ linseed oil on the final sanding...any other suggestions?
Thank you in advance,
Mike Dinko
PS.  You have made a believer in me for this service.

Answer
Hi Mike,

I'm going to cut and paste your questions so I don't miss any. Hope this makes it easy to understand.

How would you attach the floor to the anchored base? I would imagine with screws, but should I just countersink or should they be plugged?

- I think you can never go wrong when you screw something together, for if there's ever a need to take it apart, you can. I like to use screws (when possible) about 3 times as long as the wood I am going through.  So if you're going through 3/4" plywood, I would use 2" or 2 1/2" screws. If you do a nice and neat installation of them, countersunk with no wood "fuzz" , it looks sort of industrial and very professional, in my opinion. So ......no plugs, just nice flush screw heads. Square drive heads are spiffy. BLACK square drive heads are the bomb. You'll look like a pro.

Also, using pocket hole joinery, is it necessary to also glue the joints?

-Even though (I think) you're attaching side grain to end grain, there's probably not much good that the glue is going to do. Gluing end grain is useless. BUT...... I always glue those "permanent" joints. It's like added insurance that it won't come apart.  What can it hurt?

I remember something about raising the grain with water, but I need details about how to do it, i.e. how long, with a cloth, etc.

- Generally, this method involves wetting a rag (like a piece of an old T-shirt)  and wringing it dry, so it's just damp. Wipe the wood down to dampen the wood. You can let it dry naturally, or if you're in a hurry, you can use a blow dryer to hasten the process. When it dries, you can actually feel the grain of the wood that has risen. The theory is that when you sand it the second time, you "cut off" the fibers that you missed the first time.  

Sort of like that razor with the two blades...the first one pulls the hair up, the second one nips it off. Same concept.

Personally, I never wet the wood to raise the grain. I'll tell you why.

The reason that I added "no refinishing questions" to my description is that I ONLY use Danish Oil for my furniture and cabinetry. Since 1980, I've only used Watco Danish Oil. If my customers don't like it, they can get my piece unfinished and put whatever they want on it, but I wont' apply anything but oil.

So I get a lot of questions about polyurethane, lacquer, shellac, and whatever people are into. I NEVER USE THOSE.

Danish Oil is truly goof proof and allows me to apply it in any sort of situation, not just a dust free environment. When I apply it, I use wet-or-dry sandpaper to apply it, sanding it into the wood. There is no need to raise the grain, since wet sanding the wood really helps me "feel" the rough spots and sand them out before they become a problem when I'm installing the piece in some customer's home. So it's a step that I don't need to perform.

What grit sandpaper would you use to start out? I am using 120 and then 240. Is this fine enough?

-Technically, that is too big of a jump from 120 to 220 paper, so you'll probably see some sanding marks from the coarser paper when you're using the finer stuff. So to do it correctly, you would use 120, then 160, then 200, then your final 240. That's a butt load of sanding.

I usually start at 100 to remove all my machine marks like planer snipe or jointer machine marks. Then I switch to 180, and if I really want a fine finish, use 220 to cap it all off. But usually, I just use 100 and 180. I cheat a little, because I should probably go from 100 to 150 to 180. So kill me.....

"I will then polyurethane it and use steel wool between coats w/ linseed oil on the final sanding...any other suggestions? I am using 3/4 blondewood plywood for the sides, top and bottom. It is somewhat finished on both sides. After preliminary sanding with a finishing sander, I see there are still some imperfections and not a completely smooth surface. "

- Don't get mad, but I think this is overkill. I mean, you're using plywood, and it's generally thought of as a utility material. One time, I made a lovely bookcase out of Maple plywood. When I oiled it, it was blotchy and ugly. The very nature of plywood is that the top veneer is shaved from a log, so the grain can run in all sorts of directions. There's generally no telling how it's going to turn out, unless you order the premium stuff, which is really expensive.

I've seen a few articles in Fine Woodworking about how to deal with plywood veneer and eliminate the blotchiness. You could do a search on their website and read their tips on it, but I've never paid that much attention to those articles. I only build in solid wood, using plywood for cabinet back and drawer bottoms, so it's usually not a problem for me. Sorry I can't help you more with that, but I think it's just the nature of plywood.

Years ago, on one piece I built, I did a final rubout with Pumice (it looks like baby powder) which is like 3000 grit, or something like that. Yes, it came out very nice, but by the time I added up all my time into the piece, I was making like $1.50 an hour. All that finishing is timely, and in my business- time is money. So I generally do this- 2 coats of oil -the first one sanded and allowed to absorb for 20 minutes or so. The second coat is lighter, as the pores of the wood are starting to clog with oil, so there is going to be less absorption. Wipe the second coat, and wait a day. Finish it with a brief coat of paste wax (Johnson's is my favorite) and get the final bill ready for my customer. Drink a beer when it's done.

Well, Mike...... I hope I answered all your questions and didn't sound like a smart a** about the plywood thing.  Once again, I hope this helps. Feel free to write back with any other questions you might have after reading this. Relax, this is supposed to be fun!

Jamie Yocono
Wood It Is! Custom Cabinetry
Las Vegas, NV