Expert: Jamie Yocono - 5/3/2006

Question
Jamie,
First, thank you for the prompt and thorough reply,

I must have confused the issue.  I don't plan to remove the oak face frames, just chemically strip them.  Also, I don't care much about the insides although covering the shelves with laminate is a great idea.

My question is related to the outsides of the carcasses.  There are only about 5 surfaces to worry about.  My thought was to use quartersawn veneer that I would resaw, suface, and sand with a performax 16/32 to whatever thickness I choose.  I mentioned 3/32" as a thickness but I can make it thinner if that would be best.

I planned to use QS oak because the faceframes are plainsawn.  That means that the edge of my veneer would also be plainsawn and (hopefully) would not show that much.

Does that make more sense?
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Followup To
Question -
Hi Jamie,

My next project is to update the kitchen cabinets.  I plan to remove the trim strips, strip the carcases and restain and varnish the face frames.  I will construct my own new doors and drawer fronts (perhaps the whole drawer).  New hardware, different style doors (more of a craftsman style) and new color should look pretty good.

It is the sides of the cabinets that concern me.  I don't think they are even oak.  I think the cabinet maker used fir plywood and an oak stain.  In any case, they are pretty scroungy looking.  They are also not perfectly flat.  I am somewhat distrustful of the thin veneers on the market.  I can resaw my own veneer and have an 18" Rikon bandsaw for just that purpose.  If I were to resaw a bunch of quartersawn oak into 8" wide and 3/32" thick strips, how would I stick them to the sides of the cabinets with any expectation of them staying put.  Also, with wide strips of wood over plywood, what do I do about wood movement.  Will my thick veneer buckle?

Finally, how do I smooth out the surface of the cabinet to create a flat gluing surface?

So, 4 questions:

1.  Should I be so intimidated by the stick on veneers on the market?
2.  How would I attach 3/32" veneer to the sides of cabinets without uninstalling them.
3.  What about wood movement in thick veneer?
4.  How do I create a flat gluing surface.

many thanks,
Roger
P.S.  I taught Industrial Arts for 8 years but never certified in woodworking.  I was a plastics and metals kind of guy.  I did get used to having those wonderful shops around for my own projects and have acquired some tools over the years.


Answer -
Hi Roger,

You obviously know a good deal about woodworking, because you asked a lot of important questions that a beginner wouldn't even begin to ponder. And it's wise to consider all that you are thinking about, as all of this could prove problematic down the line. I'll try to help with each questions you asked, so this may turn into a long answer.

1. Should I be so intimidated by the stick on veneers on the market? Yes, you should be a little intimidated by those veneers, but maybe not for the reasons you think. I have a fair amount of experience with these, and I have a couple of opinions. First, they're pricey. Next, they stick like crazy, but CAN fail, meaning that they can bubble when you least expect it. It's just my opinion, but they're overpriced, and tricky to work with, so they wouldn't be my first choice.

2. How would I attach 3/32" veneer to the sides of cabinets without uninstalling them.  Good question. I would guess that contact cement would just about be the only option you have, but once again, you're going to have to be really careful to get it positioned right the first time. And this thickness of veneer can create movement problems, read below.

3. What about wood movement in thick veneer? I think this might not be as big a deal as one would first consider. Your plywood sides are pretty much stable, meaning they've acclimated to your kitchen environment. They probably don't move much. It might be wise to bring the 3/32" veneer inside for a while, and let it acclimate in the room, too, so that when you join the two materials, they're both going to be a similar moisture contents, and movement will be reduced. Still- movement can happen. Using this veneer creates just as many problems as it solves. Keep reading...

4. How do I create a flat gluing surface. The veneer is going to be somewhat flexible, so the surface doesn't have to be dead-on flat. And the contact cement will grab instantly, so it will compensate for any imperfections in the surfaces.

Roger, let's talk about this project you're going to undertake just a little bit. Taking off the doors and frames are going to leave you with just plain boxes that you want to get back into shape, right? You're going to reapply a new face frame, too, right? And even perhaps rebuild all the drawers. This is a fairly large undertaking, and right off the top of my head, I can think of a few solutions to some of the problems that you are going to encounter.  I'm going to throw a few things out there, and you can write back if you want to discuss them further.

Since you're remaking new drawer boxes, it really doesn't matter what you do to the inside of the cabinets. If I were taking on this project, I would buy some 1/4" or 1/8" white melamine sheets, and some 1/4" oak plywood. Then- I would resurface the bottoms of all your cabinets with the while melamine. It will make it look clean and will be easy to clean in the future. You only need to reface the bottoms of the cabinets that don't have drawers in their bottom area. In the cabinets have lower drawers, you don't see the bottom interior anyway. Next, reface the sides using the 1/4" oak plywood. Once again- you only need to face the interiors where you see them. If the cabinets have drawers in them, you're not going to see the interior, so you can leave those alone.

So- you've refaced all the surfaces that are visible, and they're clean looking and stable. And since you're going to reinstall the face frame, it's going to hide the fact that you've added a layer to the mix.  Remember that you can't just put the existing face frame back in place, you may have to cut the pieces smaller to hide the new layers you've added.

When you stop and think about all your time and the wood involved, I think it's overkill to cut your own veneer to resurface the interiors. You can glue the plywood and melamine stuff in place using something like a thin coat of liquid nails, and maybe shoot a few brads into place to hold it while the glues sets up. A those sheets of plywood (or even MDF) are pretty cheap, and will be easier to work with than your home made veneer.

Last thing- you might want to consider using European hardware like the cup hinges that most cabinet companies are using these days. They make mounting plates designed to go with face frame construction, and it makes installing new doors a breeze. I like Grass or Blum hinges, and both have face frame mounting plates readily available. I can give you specific part numbers if you're interested.

Good luck, I hope this helps. Feel free to write back with any other questions you might have after reading this. I'm sure you'll have a few!

Jamie Yocono
Wood It Is! Custom Cabinetry
www.wooditis.com
Las Vegas, NV


Answer
Hi Roger,

I'm sorry if I misread your question and gave you a bunch of information you didn't need. D'oh!

I'm still not a fan of re-covering the outside with veneer, whether it's your homemade veneer, or it's the peel and stick kind. I've owned 3 different wide sanders- two Performax and one Delta, and I feel that not one of them could sand veneer to a uniform thickness, without ripples and machine marks. I hate working with material that thin, as it's not forgiving at all. And if you glue them together at the seams, the heat from the sanding might cause the glue to fail, so your seams will come apart. I just think you need something a little more "beefy" than veneer.

This is just my opinion, but I feel like you need a "skin" of a stable material to go on top of your existing exterior surfaces. If you have enough of an overhang on your face frame, would an 1/8" skin work for you? It would help level out those surfaces that aren't flat. If you don't have enough of an overhang, can you add a sliver of solid material to your face frame, so that when you add the skin, you still have an overhang?  Maybe you could look for some 1/8" cabinet grade plywood and cut new skins for those 5 areas.

I'm curious if the 5 places you need to recover will show when your kitchen is all put back together? Are some of the places going to be hidden, like near a refrigerator or next to a stove? Or are they all going to be visible? The reason I'm asking is because you could certainly try your home made veneer in an area that won't show, as a test. Covering an area like that would tell you if the joints are going to hold up or fail over time. And it will tell you what happens with some seasonal movement. So perhaps you could cover one area, and let it sit for a while, to see what happens.

Anyway, my best suggestion is to cover the cabinet sides with something a little beefier than just a thin veneer. But by all means- try your idea first in an area and see how it tests out.

Good luck, I hope this helps. Again, feel free to write back with any other questions you might have after reading this.

Jamie Yocono
Wood It Is! Custom Cabinetry
www.wooditis.com
Las Vegas, NV