Expert: Jamie Yocono - 8/9/2007

Question
QUESTION: Hi,

My cabinet maker uses 5/8" plywood (Baltic Birch) for drawers but he screws it together, rather than use dovetail or rabetted joints. He says he's always done it that way and has never had a problem and that those other types of joints are a vestage of the past where the drawer face was part of the drawer itself and wasn't larger than the drawer, rather than now were the drawer face is larger than the door and is a separate piece and attached to the drawer. Is screwing the drawer together acceptable? Is he right about why those other joints were used?

He is using 1/4" ply for the bottoms of the drawers. Is this acceptable?

Also, he makes all his doors of MDF and then veneers them but applies solid edges. He finds MDF much smoother when cut than particle board. Is this acceptable.

All his cabinets are 3/4" veneer core plywood and his work looks great and appears to be high quality. I am just trying to get a read on this other stuff.

Thanks so much!

Leon

ANSWER: Hi Leon,

Lots' of questions, I'll try to help. I'm going to cut and paste your questions here, to be sure I don't miss anything. Of all the things you described that your cabinetmaker does, the only one I really have a problem with is the first one- screwing plywood together.

(Your question:) My cabinet maker uses 5/8" plywood (Baltic Birch) for drawers but he screws it together, rather than use dovetail or rabbetted joints. He says he's always done it that way and has never had a problem and that those other types of joints are a vestage of the past where the drawer face was part of the drawer itself and wasn't larger than the drawer, rather than now were the drawer face is larger than the door and is a separate piece and attached to the drawer. Is screwing the drawer together acceptable? Is he right about why those other joints were used?

I don't care what this guy says, screwing plywood together (unless it's face to face) is never acceptable. See, plywood is actually layers of wood, and even thought they're glued to each other, driving a screw into the edges of plywood will cause it to split apart at those layers. It would be much better to nail it together with a brad gun or finish nailer, which I've done. But driving a screw into corners to connect them is just not acceptable.

There are a few methods that work much better than that, and don't require any metal fasteners at all. A locking rabbet joint is one, at the front corner, which will keep the drawer front from being able to be pulled off. A dado at the rear is easy to machine, and is perfectly strong.

This is what I think about him making drawers that way- he probably saw it on TV or learned it from somewhere, and he's just stuck with it. People are resistant to change. So it's probably something that he's familiar with, but that doesn't make it OK. It's a bad way to assemble a drawer, period.

Dovetails are a pain, but rabbets are pretty simple. I can cut rabbets on drawer corners in the time it takes him to find his drill bits, chuck them up, drill the holes, and install the screws. Trust me, rabbets are pretty simple.


(Your question:) He is using 1/4" ply for the bottoms of the drawers. Is this acceptable?  Is it going to be installed in a groove, machined on all 4 drawer box pieces?  If so, then yes, 1/4" plywood is fine, except in two instances- if the drawer is going to hold HEAVY loads, like a garage cabinet that might be full of tools. In an instance like that, 1/2" is better. Also, if the drawer is very wide, like 36" wide, a 1/4" bottom will flex a bit. I once built an 8' wide desk, the center drawer was so wide, four people could dine in it. No joke. So a 1/4" panel was a little too thin for a wide drawer.

But- going back to the first question I asked- you want the drawer bottom held in a groove, so that all 4 edges are supported. You DON'T want a drawer bottom that's simply nailed or screwed on from the bottom. It will fall off over time.

(Your question:) Also, he makes all his doors of MDF and then veneers them but applies solid edges. He finds MDF much smoother when cut than particle board. Is this acceptable. Absolutely acceptable.

(Your question:)  All his cabinets are 3/4" veneer core plywood and his work looks great and appears to be high quality. I am just trying to get a read on this other stuff.

It sounds like everything he is doing is fine, except for screwing the plywood drawers together. This is just my opinion, but I don't care that much for Baltic birch drawer stock. Don't get me wrong, I've built a buttload of drawers using it, but over time, I've developed this opinion: I don't think what you're saving (labor wise and material cost wise) is worth having to look at the plywood edges. Yes, it's a fine material. But I prefer seeing solid wood.

Now what this would entail is this- the extra cost of buying solid wood. Then, he'll have to plane it down a little thinner, since a 3/4" thick drawer is a little clunky. But if the drawers are going to get heavy loads, or a lot of usage, like in kitchens,  3/4" is fine. Oh- and if the drawers are exceptionally deep, he might need to glue a couple of boards together to get a wider piece. But you can buy solid wood up to 11 1/2" wide (it's 1 x 12) so I can't imagine he's making a drawer deeper than that.

Anyway, that's just my opinion about using plywood. It's just not that "professional" and it really doesn't save that much. So the extra $$$ might be worth it. Depends on you and your pocketbook, really.

OK, I hope this helps. Write back if you need more answers.

And...  if you have a chance, please rate my service. Good luck with your project.

Jamie Yocono
Wood It Is! Custom Cabinetry
Las Vegas, NV
www.wooditis.com


---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Jamie,

Wow, I can't believe I got such a complete detailed answer so fast. (And yes I did rate you :) I have a few follow up questions and clarifications if you don't mind:

Regarding the joints I will ask him about the splitting. He is an architect by trade way back but dropped that about 15 years ago to do cabinetry, custom millwork and windows and works for all the higher end architects in town, so I am now surprised that he does this, given your input.

The drawer is installed in a groove and machined on all 4 drawer box pieces, but I will not the wide drawer issue maybe requiring a thicker bottom.

I am going to ask him about the plywood. I think his bias is there because he uses a lot of raw african 'sapele' mahogany and he finds solid wood tends to warp over time.

A couple of follow-up questions:

What species of solid wood do you use for your drawers?

Also, although veneered MDF drawer and door faces with solid edges are acceptable, is a solid door or drawer face any better (other than the happy feeling you might get from knowing they are solid)? Is it worth the extra cost?

Lastly, is there anything better to use that 3/4" veneer core plywood for the cabinet itself? Like, for example, solid wood, or is this overkill or not actually any better.

Thanks,

Leon



ANSWER: Hi Leon,

Your last question just happened to catch me at my computer, I'm not usually so prompt!  Anyway, here are your new batch of questions:

(Your question:) What species of solid wood do you use for your drawers? It really depends, mostly on the piece I'm building. For kitchen vanities, or furniture that's not extremely fine quality, like a regular desk or dresser, I like to use lighter colored woods. I do this so that they contrast the piece they go with- like if I built a walnut desk, I might build the drawers in maple. Or even poplar, if I can find some that isn't too green, as it is prone to be. If I can find some nice beech, that makes WONDERFUL drawers, the grain is minimal, it's light colored and yet quite strong.

But...if I am building a higher end piece of furniture, I will build the drawers the same material as the piece. I think it just looks nicer. Classier.

One thing about drawer bottoms- over the years, I've had a client or two bring a drawer I've built back to my woodshop, with a stain on the bottom. Those drawers usually have a 1/4" plywood bottom, and it can stain with certain things, like exploding or leaky cans, or even just wet stuff stored inside the drawer. So in some situations, I use a 1/4" melamine panel for the drawer bottoms. It doesn't stain, looks nice, and is easy to clean. I wouldn't use it in a fine desk, but in a child's desk drawer, I might. Also, bathroom vanities, there's always something leaking in those drawers!

(Your question:) Also, although veneered MDF drawer and door faces with solid edges are acceptable, is a solid door or drawer face any better (other than the happy feeling you might get from knowing they are solid)? Is it worth the extra cost?  

Well, my eyebrow sort of raised when you said your cabinet maker was using veneered doors. I prefer solid wood. I feel like drawer fronts and drawers are the most "touched" thing in the kitchen, so you have a tendency to wipe them off with a damp rag fairly often. Over time, the wood with look dry and sort of bleached out from all the wiping. You can't beat solid wood for durability. Also, drawers and doors are constantly getting dinged, so solid wood is much more durable. Even if he's using thicker edging, it can still delaminate.

Not to be mean, but some of the techniques he uses are a little suspect. There are just some standards in the industry, and he's just sort of skirting around them. Most people who build quality pieces use solid wood for the doors. I often buy my doors, there are some great door companies out there, they do them faster and cheaper, and often better, than I can. I'm not too proud, I know when to hire the pros. If you doubt the quality, look at the company I use: www.caldoor.com.  An yes, they're worth the extra cost. On average, a door is around $50-60, in say... Cherry. I can't buy the wood and build it that cheaply.

(Your question:) Lastly, is there anything better to use that 3/4" veneer core plywood for the cabinet itself? Like, for example, solid wood, or is this overkill or not actually any better.

You said it all in that last sentence- solid wood is overkill, and is prone to seasonal movement. So you DON'T want solid wood. Veneer core plywood is stable, cost effective, and a perfect solution to projects like these. It doesn't work for everything, but it does for this.

Are we clear?  LOL  

Just kidding, once again, I hope I helped you out, Leon.  Your questions are well thought out, and you know more than most people, so I think you'll be fine with your decisions. Good luck, if you get a chance, let me know how this project turns out. I'm curious how you work everything out with this guy.

Jamie Yocono
Wood It Is! Custom Cabinetry
Las Vegas, NV
www.wooditis.com


---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Jamie,

Thanks, I am getting a better idea about everything. Solid doors, which would not have any possibility of delaminating, do seem to make more sense. I do feel good about everything this guy does except the screwed drawers and the mdf doors and drawer faces. He has made many contemporary windows for me out of solid sapele mahogany and they are simply beautiful, well engineered and work well.

I googled 'locking rabbet joint' and variations thereof but haven't been able to figure out whether a 'locking rabbet' joint is different from a 'rabbet joint'. Also, it appears from what I have read that one can glue, screw or dowel that joint together. What is preferable? (not using screws it seems). The joint seems like it isn't that strong though (like it looks like the perpendicular piece could easily be pulled off), unless the locking rabbet joint is different from the rabbeted ones I have found. What am I missing?


Thanks,

Leon

Answer
Leon,

Use this link, scroll down to figure 12, and you'll see the appropriate joint for using at the front corners of a drawer box.

http://www.dixieline.com/woodjoint/woodjoints.htm

Here's an idea- when you write to me via All-Experts, I don't see your e-mail address, just your question. But- if you send me your personal e-mail address in a follow-up question, I'll send you a page that will illustrate drawer box construction.  I used to teach woodworking for the University of Akron, and I have handouts for all the classes I taught. One class was on kitchen cabinet construction, and we went into drawer making quite extensively. So I have a handout that will show you not only pictures, but give you a few tips about drawer building, so you can pass that along to your cabinetmaker.

Will wait to get your address,

Jamie Yocono
www.wooditis.com