Expert: Jamie Yocono - 12/14/2007

Question
QUESTION: Hello Jamie.

In redesigning my bathroom, I'm thinking of breaking a rule. I'm thinking of putting in an (oiled, or unfinished) wood floor (raised, above concrete, so as to create a heatable airspace beneath, with the wood floor in slats with gaps between).

I'm uneasy, however, about the practicalities, in terms of wood preservation and the general future of the wood floor in terms of hardness, moisture behavior (resistance to rot)--and, of course, splinters.

Somewhere along the line, I heard that Sandalwood was a good choice for this situation.

Got an opinion?
Got alternative suggestions?
Should I drop the idea altogether?

Regards,
Dan O'Hanlon

ANSWER: Dan,

I'm like you, I sometimes like to go against the norm and do unconventional things. So if you're doing what I think you're doing, I like it. I'm sort of envisioning a slatted wood floor, similar to sauna floors & walls. Am I correct?

Let me digress a minute. A few years ago, I bought a home that had been recently remodeled by a home flipper. The guy put new tile in the bathrooms, and it was hideous. The entire rest of the house is tiled in a terra cotta Spanish tile, it's gorgeous, but can be problematic in moist areas, like bathrooms. If it's installed, it has to be sealed and treated gently, as water can leave marks. I suspect that's why the remodeler put in the ugly stuff - he was too lazy to go to the trouble of sealing it properly.

I lived with that ugly tile for about a year, then ripped it all out and retiled the bathrooms so that they matched the rest of the house. Sure, it was a little time consuming to seal each tile with 3 coats of sealer, and then after it was installed, another few coats. But you know what, I love it, and it's really not that hard to keep it dry. We use rugs in the bathroom, and wipe up anything that drips on it.

Going back to your question - yes, there could be problems with the wood, but my main concern would be that it would get wet and expand, and possibly buckle. But you said you're planning on having gaps between the slats. That should eliminate any chance for bucking.

You know what- I like your idea a lot. I picture this (sort of) zen-like bathroom, with lots of wood. Sounds nice.

One thing for concern... most bathrooms are notorious for hair accumulating on the floor. So those gaps are going to be magnets for hair and dust balls. Sort of gross. Might requite vacuuming with a crevice tool, to really pull the crud out of the spaces.  Some people might view that as a turn off.

As far as splintering- you know, if the wood is sealed well and kept conditioned, I don't think it's that big of a deal. It must be sanded really well to start off, though. And you might even want to try that old trick of wetting the wood to raise the grain and then sanding it again. I would do that a few times. But... think about it.... people build wood decks all the time, and walk barefoot on them. So with adequate sanding and finishing, I think the splinter problem can be kept to a minimum.

Sounds like a cool bathroom, good luck. Write back if you need more help or advice.

Jamie Yocono
Wood It Is! Custom Cabinetry
Las Vegas, NV
www.wooditis.com


---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hello Jamie,

Thanks for replying, and so quickly.

Interesting comments--and I have heard much about having to seal certain kinds of tile--what I took to be the unglazed quarried marbles. Thanks for reminding me.

What you have said about the hair and crud is even more interesting (not to mention hair pins, bits of paper and all the other stuff that regularly gets vacuumed off the present bathroom floor--but not likely to cause a problem with what I have in mind, being to set the slatted wood in panels that sit loosely on concrete supports, for the specific purpose of lifting them, say, once a year, and taking them out into the garden for a power washing. It would also allow for the vaccuuming out of the space beneath.

I tell you all that, not only because you said you liked the idea, but because I'm still wondering what you might consider the best wood to use. Aside from anything else, sandalwood is extremely expensive in even that kind of quantity. Today I'm thinking teak, which the oriental have always traditionally used for decking--in, moreover, a tropical climate.

Comments?

Regards,
Dan

ANSWER: Dan,

Well.... THAT'S certainly and interesting design, I love the idea that the slats are removable for cleaning underneath. Very clever.

OK, your last questions were mostly about wood, and what specie might work best. Certainly the first one that comes to mind is Teak, but that's really expensive. It also dulls all your tools, so beyond just the cost of the Teak, you'll end up having to get everything sharpened afterwards. I know from experience, after I built a Teak cabinet a few years ago, I had to tear a few tools apart to send the planer and joiner blades out for sharpening.  So while Teak is nice, keep in mind that it's way more involved than what it seems. Plus- I think the last time I used it, it was like $14 a board foot. Ouch.

A better choice might be Cedar, it's used in saunas and is perfect for stability around moisture. It's expensive too, but nearly as bad as Teak. You can even find it milled and sanded, ready to use. Years ago, my dad bought a pallet of it already tongue and grooved, ready for building a sauna. He never ended up using it, so I used it up over the years, building a variety of things. It's nice to work with.

Redwood is another wood that's used in saunas.  It's gorgeous, too. And somewhat readily available.

If you're looking for something a little more affordable, or perhaps more lighter colored, perhaps a Beech or Birch would work. Both woods are used when coming into contact with moisture, like in barrel construction, and both are stable when wet. So if you're looking for a lower priced alternative to the others I've mentioned, I would consider these two woods.

That's all I can think of right off the top of my head, Teak, Cedar, Redwood, Beech, Birch... what do you think about them?  What part of the country are you in? What's available locally to you?

Write back, I want to hear more about your design... you know, you could always do a combination of woods. You could use a less expensive wood on most of the floor, with small sections of the higher priced stuff. Might be interesting.

Jamie Yocono
Wood It Is! Custom Cabinetry
Las Vegas, NV
www.wooditis.com


---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hello Jamie,

Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm in another part of the world entirely. Although I'm a native New Yorker, I live in Ireland.

Funnily enough, teak is not so expensive here--unlike beech! I know about the cedar (also expensive), and may well go that way. Redwood, or as they call it here, Red Deal, is not too exorbitant, but is somewhat scorned--and is too much like pine, anyway.

Birch? (HMmmmm....) Haven't seen birch in a while. Must have another look. Not keen on cedar. Way too soft. Not quite the  right smell for a bathroom.

In the absence of a facility to post photos, there is not much to say about the design, except that in a deliberate attemtp to "fragment" a large bathroom, I have split it both vertically and horizontally by creating two semi-separated areas, a (toilet, basin), ante-area from a more private (showirng, bathing)  behind, while raising the latter up two steps. This raising will facilitate new pipe runs, underfloor heating, and my power-shower pump, all the while as the liftable flooring makes any future maintenance easier.  (That's the "plan"!)

Going out now, to locate a sample of birch.

How well does it take and keep a stain?

Thanks.

Dan O'Hanlon  

Answer
Dan,

Well, well, well..... greetings across the sea. You sure are a long way from home, or do you consider Ireland to be your home? I suspect it's gorgeous. Lucky you.

I'm not that familiar with Birch, I've probably only used it a couple of times in my woodworking career, and that was very early on. It is very dense, like Maple, so stain has a hard time penetrating it. Therefore, it's common to get some blotchy results when staining. Some people use aniline dyes to stain it, especially if you  want it to look like Cherry, you need to use a red dye first.

Here are my thoughts about stains and finishes...

A long time ago, probably when I was in college, an artist who was working out of the college's woodshop introduced me to Watco. If you've read my answers here, then you know I'm a big fan of Watco Danish Oil. Basically, his philosophy was this - if you want a dark finish on a piece you're building, then use a dark wood. If you want something blond, then use a light wood. Don't rely on the stain to color your wood, because over time, it can fade, chip, or peel.... and that's if it goes on correctly the first time!

I took that advice to heart, and for 95% of my work, I only use a clear oil. If a customer wants a Cherry dresser, then I'm building it out of Cherry. I'm not going to build it out of Birch, and then stain it Cherry. Too many problems can crop up, like that pesky blotchiness I mentioned in the first paragraph.

Sure, I can't do that all the time. But I've gotten to the point in my career where I don't let my customers tell me how to build and finish my pieces. (It wasn't always this way!) So if someone is adamant about having a black lacquered chest, or a French polished table, then I build the piece and let THEM take it somewhere to be finished.

All this is to say - I pick my woods first by the color they will end up being, and then by the qualities I need, like hardness, resistance to moisture, etc. It may be a little backwards, and sometimes I need to be flexible, but this system works for me.

There is a book you might want to check out- it's sort of the "Bible" of wood finishing. It's called Understanding Wood Finishing by Bob Flexner. It's really a great book, and one that I turn to for answers that I need. Especially when answering questions on All-Experts.  You might want to buy it as the perfect reference book.

Be careful of that Birch- it's problematic and can be quirky.  If you just leave it clear, it'll be fine.

Hope this help. Happy Holidays to you and yours,

Jamie Yocono
Wood It Is! Custom Cabinetry
Las Vegas, NV
www.wooditis.com