Expert: Alan J Turner, SATS LL1 - 11/8/2006

Question
Thanks for the response. Sorry I left so much out. Here are the asnwers to your questions.

They are both nuetered.

They are marking w/ urine only.

The older one marks over each the little ones elimination outside mostly. The younger one tends to want his own spot, but I have seen him do the same.

By conventianial training I meant puppy classes. Sit, stay, come, go potty outside not inside that kind of "normal" puppy stuff.

Their outside enviorment is a brick patio with a gravel area for them to to do their "biz". They both have dog houses although they share one just like inside. Inside they mark specific things and places. Vertical blinds, backpacks on the ground, corners of bed or blankets hanging off the edge. They LOVE to tag laundry baskets, anything plastic or vinyl, and worst one yet mine and my husbands pillows! Needless to say we have to keep the house VERY tidy!

They will eliminate both in our presence and without. When they are marking they do try to be sneaky.

I think the older one is the main culprit in the house only becouse we catch him most of the time, but we have caught the little one too.

They have both been to the vet and they are they have been given a clean bill of health. Vet couldn't identify any reason other then "territory issues" for the marking.

I give them treats when they urinate outside in an attempt to show them they want to go outside. They come to me after they "pee pee" and I give them a small treat. If they dont go they dont get a treat.

When I catch them marking I have to admit I do the ever famous, "NO, NO, NO" run and grab them and toss them outside. I then go inside and clean it up!

They do not eliminate in their crates or their larger pen ever!

The little one is extremely jeoulos if anyone else gets attention. He tends to get up in your face and "demands attention". We are very aware of that and try to not allow that to happen. We try to make sure every single one of them gets loving, scratching, petting, treats. If we try to seperate the two min pins I have to say the little one kinda goes bezerk. I really do try to pay attention to all of them, but the little one is more work alot of the time.

As far as specific territory they tend to share it all. Crates, doghouses, toys. They both sleep under the covers when we let them hang out on our bed. They usally even sleep back to back or it seems like they have to be touching in some way. Now my pom does definaetly have her own things and places but they dont bother her much, she doesnt let them. She is the one who really runs the show.

Thanks for any help you can give me!

Debbie
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The text above is a follow-up to ...

-----Question-----
I would tend to say I am "dog savvy", have had numerous dogs, cats, etc. These two are stumping me. I have 3 dogs. 1 pomeranian, and 2 min pins. I have had the pom since she was 11 weeks old and i have no problems w/her.She is now almost 4. I rescued one of my min pins about 2 1/2 yrs ago. We think he is 5 or 6. He had been extremely neglected. He was doing very well no problems housetraing eating well gaining back his weight (and them some) his hair grew back and he has thrived with us. We got the other min pin Sept of lasy year. He was 7 weeks old when we brought him home. They became FAST freinds. We had two crates for them, but they moved in togther after about a week. Where one is the other is. They do not fight, they get along very well. We had no abnormal problem potty training the 3rd dog. All dogs are fixed. My problem now is the two min pins have gotten into a "marking match". Inside, outside it doesnt matter. We have tried conventional training. They are very well behaved. They are crate trained, we have bought male diapers, calming tablets, drenched the house with natures miracle,it seems like we have done it all. We have gone so far as to invest in a pen for them so they do not have to cooped up in their crates for long periods of time. We can NOT take our eyes off of them when they are out of there pens. It just takes a matter of seconds!! We give them treats to go outside, but they always come inside to mark. It is driving us crazy!! The older rescue dog seems to be the main culprit, but the baby is right in there too. What can I do to stop the marking behavior? I am game for any and all ideas. I love my dogs and I want them to have free run of the house but I cant allow it when they do this! Help
-----Answer-----
Dear Debbie,
You pose an interesting and challenging problem. I'll need more information please. . . . . Marking match, two males... ... .. hmmmmm... are they intact or neutered?

Are they marking with urine or feces or both?

Are they marking over each other's eliminations or are they marking in different locations?

What exactly is "conventional training"?

Are they marking in specific areas, if so, what is the flooring in these areas?

Do they eliminate only in your presence, ... only in your absence .... both in your absence and in your presence?

How do you know which one is marking inside?

Have they both had a medical checkup with the specific goal of identifying or ruling out any medical conditions that might contribute to excessive elimination?

When you give them treats to go outside, exactly when and where do you deliver the treats?

What do you do when you catch them marking?

Do I understand that they do not eliminate in their crates?

Do they compete for your attention, or specific territory?

Please give me more clues and I'll do my best to offer helpful suggestions. Thank you.
AT  

Answer
Dear Debbie,
Thanks for the follow-up.

First, order this book, Feeling Outnumbered? How to Manage and Enjoy Your Multi-Dog Household. (Paperback)
by Karen B. London, Patricia B. McConnell

This is not a house marking guide but is a great guide for addressing social and attention seeking behaviors. Social standing and anxiety are contributors to marking behaviors.  Attention seeking is sometimes in the same class of misbehaviors as anxiety.

Dogs that mark like to mark vertical structures - the higher the mark, the bigger the dog, thus the social rank is supposed to be higher. Place some vertical items for them to mark on the patio. Teach them to ring a bell for the opportunity to be let outside so they can mark the surface and then get a treat.

If you deliver the treat after they come back to you, the treat is for coming back, not for choosing a particular location. Use a marker to communicate the instant of success (like a clicker). The marker can be delivered immediately when they eliminate.   

I would suggest starting a program to teach both dogs to ring a bell to indicate that they want to eliminate outside on the vertical surface. This program will hopefully give them the motivation to want to go outside - instead of inside.

Here are the instructions for one dog. Obviously you must teach each one.

Motivating him to want to go outside is done by the use of rewards for ringing the bell. First you teach him to ring a bell (with his paw or nose - your choice) on a string that you hold in your hand. You mark the bump with a click and then he gets a treat for bumping the bell. Do this several times each day until he absolutely knows the drill!

Once he figures this out, you move to the next step. Hang the bell on the door and wait for him to bump it. Reward each bump with a click, followed by a treat. He gets the treat inside the house at this point, right next to the door.

Once he learns this step - instead of giving him a treat inside, you click the bump, you open the door, go outside and give him the treat outside the door. Repeat until he absolutely knows this step.

The next step would be to click the bump, open the door, walk to one of the vertical surfaces and deliver the treat there. Once he is happily running to a structure for the treat, you change the timing of the click. Withhold the click until he gets to the structure. Click the instant he gets there and deliver a treat.  Once he absolutely learns this step, move to the next step.

Do this one in  the morning or when you know he needs to eliminate. He bumps the bell, you open the door, he runs to the vertical surface, you give him the cue to eliminate, he eliminates, you click and then you give him the treat.

The idea is that you must give him a reason to want to go outside to eliminate on the vertical surface.

Buy the book, Clicking With Your Dog by Peggy Tillman for
instructions about using a clicker to target train. Or Buy the book, Click Here:For a Well-Trained Dog by Deb Jones.

The first book is an illustrated guide, the second provides you more information about clicker training. Buy them both for the best chance for success!

Scolding is not really going to change their motivation to mark, but it will teach them to be sneaky.  

Happy Training!
AT