Expert: Daniel Mazur - 7/11/2009

Question
QUESTION: Hi Daniel,

I just read another answer of yours to a guy called ankit, I guess, and you said that it requires a lot of mathematical rigour fot TP and it is a very specific field.

This has really concerned me. Though I've asked you questions about different courses before, but I'd like to do that again.
I'm preparing for IIT, and will hopefully get selected.
If I do, I would like to be a student of IIt delhi. Other branches of IIT offer integrated courses in Pure physics but IIT DELHI doesn't. It offers a "MS and PhD" integrated but not a "BS and MS" integrated. Moreover it doesn't even offer a simple BS in pure physics.
Rather it offers a course called "ENGINEERING PHYSICS". This is the course I'm planning to go for.

I'm posting the link to the details of this course below,

I would really like you to please go through it and tell me if there is anything that is not covered in this course and which I would require.
The link is :

http://web.iitd.ac.in/~physics/index_files/btech.htm

The table that you see on this page gives the brief outline of the course. For the detailed syllabus there is a link on the right of the table saying "courses starting with EP". Please click on that to get the entire syllabus.

The direct link to this syllabus page is: (in case the above link doesn't work)

http://web.iitd.ac.in/~physics/course/ep_syl.htm

Also if you are unable to follow the above links, Please open the IIT delhi website itself.
It is:

www.iitd.ac.in

please ensure you type "www." if you are opening the IIT delhi site directly because it is facing some technical problem and won't open otherwise. After opening the IIT delhi website, you could search for the link of physics department and in there you could click on the "B.Tech." programme. This is only in case the first 2 direct links I provided don't work.

Cheers!!
Shikhin

ANSWER: Hi Shikhin,

I noticed that the syllabus at http://web.iitd.ac.in/~physics/course/ep_syl.htm does not mention any course in pure mathematics. It that correct? The EPL103 Mathematical Physics already shows you differential eqns and modern methods, but where do you learn, what a simple gradient is?

The syllabus is as packed with modern scientific topics that (apart from the maths I don't see) I cannot judge it as wrong, only... It really, really resembles a standalone M.S. program with bits of undergraduate subjects and loads of MS-level subjects. They seem to TRY to teach you loads, but I don't see the basics and I don't see, how they can go into sufficient depth in any of the subjects to give you a THOROUGH basis for a TP career. Theoretical subjects are these: all EPL1xx, EPL201-208, EPL333, EPL335, EPL338, EPL440. Starting EPL206 they are, however, pointing towards solid state physics specialization. Instead of teaching you the universal methods of TP, they teach you the specialized theories in solid state physics, s.s. electronics, and plasma physics (which is merely a basis for the more practical and engineering courses in materials and vacuum processing). Where Is group theory and all the necessary general (!) but advanced maths? In the 3. or 4. year, where is any introduction into quantum chromodynamics, quantum electrodynamics, general relativity? As an experimentalist, I am really not the best person to tell you, what is it that's missing, but I can bet my head that this syllabus may make you aware of all that's required for being a solid state experimentalist, physicist or engineer.

A "born" theoretical physicist would be up all night trying to draw a 2D slice of a 5D projection of a 13D cube... But the important thing is that only the first year (and half of the second) will do you any good in honing your theoretical skills, and it still depends on the teachers, how exactly they orient the courses - more purely theoretical or more applied approach, both formally fulfill the syllabus, while being fundamentally different in spirit.

I would recommend a school perhaps less famous, but offering a BS or integrated BS+MS in pure physics. In the latter case you can rely on that you will get to BS level without much distraction by specialized topics and in the MS extension you will be able to choose a purely theoretical specialization.

I can refrain that nothing is lost even if you go through the EP program at IIT. But if TP is what you crave, you shouldn't waste time with practical, experimental and applied subjects.

All Best,
Daniel


in 4 years you have topics packed there, which would be too much even for TWO standalone Bc and M.S. programs - specifically Solid State Physics and

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hi Daniel,

Thanks for the swift reply. I got your point.
First thing I'd like to ask is that is it possible to cover up subjects which aren't included in the course, the important mathematical as well as theoretical topics you mentioned, on my own??
Is it possible to cover all that up through some good books??
As it is, I really don't like attending lectures and listening and taking notes. I just want a good source of information, perhaps like a good specialized book, and I like to work it out all myself and take my time in doing things.
So learning from indirect sources would really be no major problem for me....but the point is would that be possible?

Would I be able to give time to these topics and at the same time also cope up with the EP courses???
For example, would it be possible for me to do something like general relativity, right from the second semester onwards???
I know a lot of mathematics and other stuff would be a prerequisite for that, but could I do that on my own???

Are there resources, like some really good books availible out there that can take you from the lowest levels to the most advanced ones??

Anyway, first I have to get selected  to chose the programmes!
But hopefully I will, and there are pure physics BS+MS integrated courses too, at the IIT but not at the delhi branch. And it will also depend on what rank i get in the merit list and accordingly i could chose a course next year....so I would get back to you for a detailed discussion on this again, next year.
But as of now, please let me know, whether i could cover up those subjects on my own too....or would it be too difficult to do that??

Thanks,
Shikhin

ANSWER: Dear Shikhin,

I am the last one to say things cannot be learned from textbooks. It is possible. You need to consider two major issues: You will need to (before your EP program starts) research and nail down a complete mathematics and physics curriculum that a theoretical physicist takes in undergraduate years. I cannot help with that on the account of not being a theorist. I am talking about the complete sequence of couses/subjects that future theorists encounter. General Relativity is not a second year topic, it is 4th year or the first graduate year subject. You can study it, but I think you should focus on maths subjects in this study by yourself. Theory of groups, theory of representations, statistics, and I don't know how much else... I really recommend that you copy the line of study of those who really take a scientific Bc in physics, including the optional courses that intended theorists take.

Second issue is, that in order to study successfully in parallel EP and your private theoretical curriculum you must be an excellent student and give up on most of life offers you at that splendid age of early twenties. People can do it, people have done it, so it is possible. It is entirely up to you, if you succeed, but you will have to be excellent. Be prepared that there is a LOT more to maths and physics than is ever mentioned at high schools. Your remark about physics BS+MS integrated elsewhere but Delhi makes me suggest the possibility that you in fact do not stay in Delhi for you college. It is too crazy? You need to consider prestige of schools and programs in the field you are interested in. IIT Delhi may be the best in technology and engineering studies, but if you wish to do TP, does it matter so much to study there? It certainly looks counterproductive...

Cheers,
Daniel



---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hi Daniel,

Thanks for the reply.
First, the idea of staying in delhi is not because of the prestige of the school as much as it is of my being in the city....I mean I have a whole lotta things to catchup with here...as I'm a musician and otherwise too...I know it sounds stupid but I was just trying to chalk out the perfect path for me....
I don't even know whether I'll get a reank that'll get me admission in EP in delhi or not....so it all depends on the rank.....
If I don't get a rank enouch to get me in IIT delhi, then I'll be definitely going in for the Pure Physics integrated at some other branch....

But if i do get selected at IIT delhi, I'll probably, and I say "probably" take EP....

you said,
"Second issue is, that in order to study successfully in parallel EP and your private theoretical curriculum you must be an excellent student and give up on most of life offers you at that splendid age of early twenties"

I must say, it really seems very hard!!!

Anyway, I checked up a fewsites like stanford and harvard...
but they don't give the exact topics and syllabus there....
anywhere online that you know where i could get it...???

Cheers!!
Shikhin

P.S. also on an estimate, could you just give me a rough idea as to how many hours a day would be needed to put in if take EP and carry out my own studies too???
I mean roughly how many?? 8 or 10 or 12 or what???!!

Answer
Shikhin,
I think that you can plan on 20-30 credit hours of school per semester, which is 4-6 hours daily of being at school for your EP. I don't know about you, but I was pretty exhausted after that, even though college meant less credit hours than my high school. I would hazard a guess that you may be able to put in another 2 hours daily for your private studying three or four times a week, so you still have some time to do your course-based homework, prepare for physics labs, write lab reports etc. Depending on how well you are coping this may mean around solid 8-9 hours of studying daily. You can study your TP at a slower pace in the first year, because actually the first year of EP is also a fair basis for theory. But at latest in mid-second year you should start.
For an overview of pure physics courses you can try have a look at http://www.iit.edu/csl/phy/programs/. Apart those stated courses there are always optional courses, which will contain the interesting stuff: general relativity, string theory, more specialized maths, look at the courses under Ph.d. in physics there.
That's it for the moment,
Daniel