Expert: Carlo Segre - 5/29/2011

Question
QUESTION: Hi Carlo,

This is going to be a long question. But I hope you would find the time to answer it.

Graduate School application

I am currently pursuing a degree in Electronics and Communication Engineering from a nowhere near the top institute in India.

I'd like to apply for a Ph.D. in Theoretical Physics in the US.

First,
Is it going to be difficult for me to get an admission into good schools because of my engg. background? Or will it make no practicle difference if I have a good gpa, along with some research exp. and decent GRE scores?

How much is the minimum cutoff gpa for most universities? I read it's somewhere around 3.0 What is the max. in US educational system? is it 4.0 0r 5.0? and what is this 3.0 out of? is it out of a max of 4.0 or 5.0?


Career Prospects in Academia

I have read a lot of forums and articles like "Don't become a scientist" which you may have already read or could easily find it by googling it.

The concern shown by all such posts is that the graduate system is more or less a scam which attracts lots of passionate students by giving them TA's and RA's, and most of these grads are either sucked into the "postdoc hell hole" or simply leave the academic field for other jobs.

How much of it is fact?

I read that even for Ivy League graduates, the chances of making it into tenure track positions is around 1/4.

If that's the case, wouldn't a Ph.D. be 5-6 years down the drain?

Also, how difficult is it for immigrant students to get a) academic jobs b)industrial jobs, like those in finance, wall street etc.?

Thanks

ANSWER: Hi metalrose (?)

Long question, long answer...

Given your engineering background, it will be challenging to enter a Ph.D. program in physics right away.  There are just too many courses that you are lacking for most schools to admit you right away.  That does not mean that it is impossible or that you should not try to do it.  

Most universities in the US work on a 4.0 maximum GPA and while the minimum GPA for entering graduate school is 3.0, in order to get into the top schools one needs nearly perfect GPA as well as a top notch General GRE and a very strong Physics GRE score (over 65 percentile).  Research experience is a must.  Universities not in the top 40 or so will have a bit less lofty standards.  You might be able to get into a lower ranked program, however, if you have strong GPA and scores.  This is particularly an issue because I am pretty sure you have not had a serious quantum mechanics course sequence and this is the biggest missing component that is required for physics.

So, the question you have to answer is whether you have the vocation for doing theoretical physics or is it getting a Ph.D. that is your interest.  The reason I ask is that a Ph.D. in Electrical Engineering is also an option and in many cases, the research one does is not too far away from that in physics.  The reality is that there is a lot of overlap at the Ph.D. and research level.  There are many physicists who end up as faculty in engineering.

If your answer is that physics, and theoretical physics specifically, is your passion and you cannot get into a physics Ph.D. program right off the bat, then there is also a second way to pursue this goal.  You should look for an M.S. program in physics first, where you can take the courses that you are missing with an engineering degree and prove yourself capable to step up to the next level, possibly at a different university.  If you choose this course and you need to have a TA position to afford it, you need to find a university that provides support for M.S. students. Usually these are universities which do not have a Ph.D. program and want a strong student in their program.  Universities with Ph.D. programs generally reserve the TA/RA support for those students and M.S. student need to finance their own education, if they are even admitted.

I don't mean to be too negative because at my institution, Illinois Tech, we have had a number of Engineering students enter our graduate program in physics.  While we don't generally support them for the M.S. portion of their studies, if they do well, we will take them into the Ph.D. program with support.

Now for your second question.  I have been an academic advisor for many undergraduates over the years and I DO NOT recommend a Ph.D. program unless the student has a real passion for the subject and really just wants to pursue the advanced education for itself alone.  There are no guarantees after one gets a Ph.D. and postdoc hell is certainly a possibility, particularly in theoretical physics, where there are only a few positions for faculty (see the Theoretical Physics Rumor Mill sites such as the ones below for particle physics).

 http://particle.physics.ucdavis.edu/rumor/doku.php

 http://www.freewebs.com/heppostdoc/

So, if you don't have that desire, then of course you might conclude that a Ph.D. is 5-6 years down the drain.  There are other considerations too.  If you take time to get a Ph.D., you will never likely get back the income you lost because the Ph.D. never really improves your salary a lot compared to a Masters which is probably the best for salary augmentation.

I tell all my graduate students that they need to be open to working in a field other than basic physics.  This is simply reality and a good scientist can actually find a rewarding and interesting career in many different fields.  Industrial research or government lab positions are also possible.

Finally, finding a job in academia, industry or finance is not a problem for immigrants.  In fact most of the students who get a Ph.D. in the U.S. are international students.  There are just not that many U.S. students who are interested in an advanced degree in physics and the sacrifice in income that comes from not working and moving forward in a career for the 5-6 years of graduate study.  So this last part of your question is really the least problematic of any of them.

Well, I have painted a bleak picture for you, I am sure.  It is important, however, to embark on an endeavor like this one with wide open eyes and accepting the realities of what you are planning to do.  That being said, I have no regrets of having followed this path.  When I started, the common statement was that a Ph.D. in physics would qualify you only to drive a taxi..  My colleagues in graduate school have gone on to a variety of careers both in and out of academia.

Hope this helps,

Carlo

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hi Carlo,

Thanks a lot for answering that.

I know I would technically lack a lot of physics courses in an engg. course.
But what if one does them on their own? Is there any possible way to show this to the admission departments in the universities.

I am in my second year now, and since the beginning of college last year, I made it a point to study undergrad. physics alongside my engg. course. So far I have done newtonian mechanics from Kleppner and Kolenkow, and electrodynamics from Griffiths(briefly). I have a summer break now, and i hope to finish off with Mathematical methods by Mary Boas and then tackling quantum mech. (from griffiths) and other courses would become relatively easy.

So I think I'll be able to complete almost all courses required at an undegrad. level.
How could I possibly show this, apart from my GRE scores?
Would a distant program degree in physics help?

If I do get a M.Sc. degree first (maybe from India itself?), I am worried that I'll have to redo the thing since most US universities don't offer standalone Ph.D.'s. Is that right?


Also, as for pursuing a Ph.D.,
I really wnat to do that.
I try to think of something else that I might be able to do after my engg. instead of a Ph.D. in physics, and I can't think of anything that I'd want to do. Maybe that's because I've always been too fixated on pursuing a Ph.D. in theo. phy. and never thought about other things.

Or maybe that's because I really want to pursue physics. I don't know.
But my chances of doing something else are practically nil.

A couple more questions I'd like to ask.

In practice, how many post doc positions are absolutely necessary before even thinking about applying for faculty positions?

How hard is it for physics Ph.D.'s to get Quant finance jobs that pay well, like those at wall street?
I'm sure they are not as tough as getting a faculty position.

But can just about anyone with a physics Ph.D. from a top 50 school get it?

Also, how come there aren't any problems for immigrants while taking up jobs after Ph.D.s since the student visas are granted based on the very fact that we are willing to come back to our home country after the Ph.D.
and are not potential immigrants.


Thanks

ANSWER: Hello again:

Self study is good and it looks like your are working through the right books.  The best way to show your competence is to do well in the Physics GRE.  This demonstrates mastery at some level.

in any case, it might be that a university will ask you to start with the M.S. program before moving on to a Ph.D. Getting an M.S. in India would be a reasonable alternative but it is hard for me to predict which universities will be willing to accept this.  I guess that I don't understand your comment about a standalone Ph.D. program but the fact is that most Ph.D. programs in physics do not require a student to get a M.S. first.  It can be done and will not hurt but it is not required.  

Now for the other questions.  Typically you will need to do a postdoc if you intend to get a job at a research university.  If you are in theory it may be two or more postdocs since the data on the site I showed you indicates an average of 6 years after the Ph.D. for the first faculty position in particle theory.  An experimentalist might have only one postdoc can if you are interested in a community college, a 4-year college or a university without a Ph.D. program, it may be possible to snag a position right after the Ph.D.  

Getting a job is not so much dependent on the school you graduate from but your thesis advisor.  My students have not had difficulty getting postdoc positions over the past few years...  of course I am a materials scientist and an experimentalist.

Well, what the Visa interview states and what happens 6 years later when you finish the Ph.D. are two different things.  If you have a job offer and the employer is willing to sponsor you for an H-1 Visa, then you can get it.  Initially there is a practical training status that you can use to work for up to 1.5 years and after that, it all depends on how valuable you are to the employer.

Cheers,

Carlo

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hi Carlo,

[Q]
I guess that I don't understand your comment about a standalone Ph.D. program but the fact is that most Ph.D. programs in physics do not require a student to get a M.S. first.  It can be done and will not hurt but it is not required.  
[/Q]

I think I am confused about the way Ph.D. works in the US.

In India and also in UK, we have B.sc.(3-4 years), M.Sc. (2 years) and then a Ph.D.(3 years).
One cannot pursue Ph.D. without and M.Sc.

What I understand of the system in U.S. is that instead of dealing with M.Sc. and Ph.D. seperately, there is an integrated program of 5-6 years at the end of which one gets the Ph.D.
Masters degree and the relevant education of that level takes place in the 1st two years of this course(called the grad. courses) and from 3rd year on, one moves on to work on research.

Am I missing something?

The point I was trying to make is that If I first do a standalone M.Sc. in India, and then apply for a US Ph.D. program, I'll have to redo that masters education in the form of the US graduate courses given during the 1st two years of the grad. course, whereas if I were to pursue a Ph.D. in India or the UK system, I would apply for the 3 year Ph.D. program after my M.Sc. which would involve research work and negligible courses, as I would have had all these courses in my M.Sc.

So basically the US combines the M.Sc. and Ph.D. of the UK system into one unified Ph.D. course of 5 years. Right?

Also, I wanted to know if a distance education degree in physics from another Indian university would be of any benefit in my applications?

Thank You.

Answer
Hi metalrose:

I see where your question is coming from now.  No, the M.S. is not required in the U.S. and in fact it is usually the case that most universities take only students interested in the Ph.D. with the M.S. being a stopping point if the Ph.D. does not work out.  That being said, most universities in the United States will accept a Masters degree from another university as meeting many or all of the formal course requirements for the Ph.D.  That means that you would not have to take courses for 2 years or so but could get started right away with the advanced courses and research.

One difference is that there is no guarantee that your Ph.D. will be completed in 3 years after your course work is done.  On average, the overall time to Ph.D. from a B.S. in the U.S. in physics is about 6 years.  The rule of thumb is that the Ph.D. is awarded when the research has reached a stage where it is publishable as a dissertation.  Clearly this depends on the project and the subfield.

Many universities accept a M.S. from universities not in the U.S., you need to check before applying.  However, from India, specifically, if you have a 3 year B.S. many times, U.S. universities do not consider that to be equivalent to the U.S. Bachelors degree and thus if you have an M.Sc. they might still require some course work.  I think that if you are at an Indian Institute of Technology, then the 3 year degree is more likely to be recognized.

Here is what I do when advising international students.  If they have a M.Sc. and I am not completely sure of their competence at the level we expect in our program, I ask them to take a couple of courses and prove themselves.  If they are successful, and particularly if the student is able to pass the Ph.D. qualifier exam, allowances will be made and courses can be waived.  I can't say that all universities in the U.S. will do this but I bet most will since the major aspect of the Ph.D. is the research, not the coursework.

I am not sure about a distance education degree.  Many universities in the U.S. look askance at such degrees although many universities are branching into that direction themselves.  It is a tension between the more traditional and 21st Century realities.

In looking back at your previous questions, I noted that you are in your second year.  Is it possible to sit in on physics classes and get some letters of reference from the professors there to show your competence in the undergraduate physics material even though you have an engineering degree?  This would probably be a plus in your applications.

Hope this helps,

Carlo