Expert: J.M.J. West - 8/6/2008

Question
I'm glad you like these questions, they've definitely been a thorn in my side since I was a wee little child, to today.  Very brave answering, as many a Christian have fallen by the wayside trying to address these kinds of issues, I still wrestle with not having received Revelation, yet.  I've preserved 95% of my original material, and 90% of yours, all the rest is addressed, and my issues stand unchanged and enhanced in the 95%.  [END] is at the end, if it gets cut here, and not your email notice.

====(A1) God is omnipotent all powerful.
====(A2) God is omniscient all knowing.
====(A3) Adam and Eve were created immortal and with free-will.

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====(A4) even finite-human engineering-omniscience knows that all free-will "systems" with accessible restriction rules to obey, will inevitably fail to obey when given infinite time.

JMJW:"I don't know that (A4) is true."

RESPONSE: THIS IS TRUE, for only God has Perfection, for no-one, no human, are justified or saved according to the Law, as no one is perfect except God as Jesus, who could pass His own Test of Law in Perfection.  All other mere-humans are destined to fail by any Law God set earlier, whether The Garden Law, given infinite time as an immortal, or Moses's Law, as finite sin-stained mortal human.  And when (A1:omniscient), God Knows what He Makes ... which is 100% sinners from BC to today.  If perfection was possible in this dimension, it would exist as perfection on Earth.

VERSES:
Psalm:143:"2 And do not enter into judgment with Your servant, For in Your sight no man living is righteous."
Galatians:2:"16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.";3:"10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them"
Acts 13:"39 and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses"
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====(A5) God is goodness of ways, perfection, longsuffering patient, merciful, loving, etc.
====(A6) God created all things, and by Him no thing was not created.
Treasury of Scripture Knowledge: "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

====The issues to me appear to be:

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====(I1) Why does God create failure destined humans (A1)(A2), and given their certain failure (A2)(A4), then God subsequently punishes all humans with briers and death, even though he knows they are destined to fail (A2)(A5), which is like telling your children don't do X FOREVER to obey your parental wisdom, and when they inevitably fail, you punish every child on the planet with sure death and labor and toil, with (A5) implying that drawing lines, and following through on delivering promised suffering and infliction is GOOD TRAINING,

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JMJW:"They were created in a way unique from how all of the rest of us are created - they did not have the stain of original sin, which is a darkening of human reason and intellect. They were perfect exemplars of humanity, perfect representatives of us all, and for this reason all of humanity literally resided in these two representatives at the beginning of time. And when they fell, it literally shattered human nature, because all of human nature literally resided in them.

RESPONSE: (I1) still stands.  Created HOWEVER they were, THEY were destined to fail, AND GOD KNEW THEY WOULD FAIL (A2 OMNISCIENT).  YHVH The ultimate engineer MADE THEM IMPERFECT INNER SOULS, KNOWINGLY (A2 omniscient)(A4 all sin).  God Creates a universe of implicitly destined suffering earth, with wars, genocides, concentration camps, accidents, ignorance, illness, et cetera, ALL KNOWINGLY BY YHVH (A2 omniscient).  And punishes ALL HUMANS with a descendant Sin Virus by CREATION DESIGN, and WE are not even made so-called perfect like Adam and Eve.  Perfect, is not so perfect, with God the ultimate knowing engineer (A4).
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JMJW:"[When I see] [my son] [trying to climb up on the counter], and [I] tell [him] to stop, and then follow it with "if you don't, you'll be sorry." When [I see] [him] fall later, it's never a joyful "I told you so" moment, but a "this is the natural fruit of your decisions, and why I warned you against this course of action" moment."

RESPONSE: [When God Omnisciently Knows] [ALL of His children] [will turn to sin (except Himself as Jesus)], and [God] tell[s all] to stop, and then follow it with "if you don't, you'll be sorry[, surely die, work with briers, labor childbirth, suffer wars, genocides, accidents, concentration camps, illness, ignorance, et cetera.]" When [God Knowingly Permits] [all humans] fall later [exactly as HE KNEW WOULD HAPPEN OMNISCIENTLY], it's never a joyful "I told you so" moment, but a "this is the natural fruit of your decisions, and why I warned you against this course of action" moment.

RESPONSE: So God Makes sadness for Himself and all concerned, knowingly (A2 omniscient).  God KNOWS ALL THESE DIRE THINGS WILL HAPPEN (why I warned you against this course of action (I SAW IT ALL BEFORE OMNISCIENTLY)).  GOD KNEW HE would create souls that would choose not to worship His ways.  God Knowingly creates the evils and sadnesses via His Creation He Knows so well needs His Help.
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====(I2) Why is Got not capable of creating soft free-will so that 100% of the souls will be saved (not-A5)(not-A1)(not-A2), as God only makes souls so potentially heavy, that not even God can lift them for salvation (A1), with His infinite power, patience, mercy, not saving, but building Hell to destroy souls in Revelation (A1)(not-A5). In fact, if God is omnipotent and omniscient (A1)(A2), why didn't He SIMPLY create 100% saved free-will beings before time began, when cause and effect didn't apply to logic and God, so these temporal self contradiction can't exist in the first place, and He could have achieved PERFECTION in SALVATION, but only makes willy-nilly units for salvation that happen to go HIS WAY.

JMJW:"I think that creating "free will" that does what you want it to do 100% of the time is a contradiction.  That's like saying "why didn't God create circles that have corners?"  Love cannot be forced, and God, who is Love, is not a rapist.  God wanted us to be free to love Him and know Him, but this NECESSITATES that we be actually free to reject him - and if we are free to do so, then it is a REAL POSSIBILITY that could happen.  And we know it was a real possibility precisely because it DID happen (and while this is pure speculation on my part which probably wouldn’t apply to perfect people, I wonder if we’d wonder if we were really free ever had we never fallen)."

Think!?  Not Know, Gnosis, Logos.  THEREFORE BY YOUR BELIEF, God CANNOT create souls 100% destined for salvation.  God is an imperfect GOOD creator.  God KNOWS He creates SUFFERING and HELL for some of His Creation, but God is NOT RESPONSIBLE for what God KNOWINGLY CREATES IMPERFECTLY.  Examine (I4)-RESPONSE, for Bible Verses, reference contradiction of what is possible-not-possible.
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====(I3) Why was God so short of longsuffering patience with Adam and Eve, but simply punishes them at their first disobedience, AND punishes them and their descendants to the end of time, for practical purposes (not-A5).

JMJW:"Well, (1) in the first place, he had commanded Adam at the start – Adam had heard the mandate of God directly, and the doom which lay upon the action. Yet Adam and Eve sought to be “like God, but without God”, turning against their one source of ultimate happiness.  (2) Secondly, it wasn’t simple disobedience but insurrection, a turning against.  (3) Third, they are not punished to the end of time, and this self-same deity became one of them and shared in their sufferings and misery, that he might thus elevate them."

RESPONSE: (1) But the Bible Genesis gives no record of mercy, by correcting and removing their sin in love ... right-away allowing the suffering to the end of time for all.  No MERCY, nor FORGIVENESS, nor LONGSUFFERING, IN THAT TIME, when all things are possible with God.  GOOD GOD (A5) IS NOT FOUND IN GENESIS RIPPLING TO END OF TIME BY HIS DESIGN.  (2) Correction on point: ALL disobedience of God and His Ways (SIN) is insurrection to God: Romans 11:"30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief (disobedience, turning away).  Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.".  And that doesn't even cover natural accidents, uncorrectable, yet suffering.  (3) We still die, even today.  Do you see IMMORTALS walking around in a GARDEN anymore, NOT having women-child-bearing pains, and NOT working from the sweat of their brow to support woman?  I see no such thing, the consequences of Adam and Eve working until the end of time by God's Created Design, until Jesus's return.  My issue still stands with your answer.

RESPONSE: If I were God, I would have removed their sin, punished JUST THEM, removed their knowledge, and let them go again, in perfection from them on in the Garden and put flaming swords around the tree, with MERCY and PATIENCE in their foolish ways (even though they are SO-CALLED PERFECT).  That's mercy, longsuffering, and kindness to them AND all the generations to the end of time.  But they get spanked, and we all feel it!  The sins of the fathers, borne by the innocent children to the end of time.  Even if you accept Jesus, you still suffer all these things.  You can imagine what is NOT WRITTEN, Adam says "please forgive us God", God says, "Not this first time, sorry, but the ramifications to the end of this age are IRREVOKEABLE by the way I Set things up.  I can Show You no Mercy Here."
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====(I4) If God is omniscient, and omnipotent (A1)(A2), why can't He make ANY PERFECT good without knowingly complicitly ALLOWING even one iota of evil (A2), implying God is not omnipotent to not self-contradict, but then God is impotent in time-space free-will domains, creating a disunity, for which HE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR as (A6) implies responsibility for what He created.

JMJW:"God being “omnipotent” doesn’t mean he can do ANYTHING.  He cannot do what is a logical contradiction, and so while he positively wills no evil to happen, he permissively allows it that from the potentiality for evil he can bring greater good.  He is responsible for creating creatures which were free to reject him, not for their rejection of Him."

RESPONSE: You say it is contradiction that God Makes Good without Evil.  Many say, outside of time, God is beyond logic and contradiction, so ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE BY GOD ... BUT NO THEY AREN'T!?  Despite, Mathew:19:"25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? 26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God [not quite?] all things are possible."  NOT SO.Revelation:20:"14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (I2, God doesn't save 100%, God CAN'T make that kind of free-will human., God creates and authors Known Death.)  He Makes the capacity of Rejection, He Makes Death of His Reject Humans.  God's choices lie within Himself, as the Ultimate Free-Will to Good Ways.  God's suffering is real, and it is a temporal taste of the natural fruition that comes from allowing free-will finite humans, when looking for Love from humanity, producing: accidents, "natural" disasters, genocides, concentration camps, wars, disease, ignorance, et cetera.
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Answer
Shawn,

I’m glad you appreciated my responses.  I’m glad to see you took the time to respond too.  

YOU WROTE:
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JMJW:"I don't know that (A4) is true."

RESPONSE: THIS IS TRUE, for only God has Perfection, for no-one, no human, are justified or saved according to the Law, as no one is perfect except God as Jesus, who could pass His own Test of Law in Perfection.  All other mere-humans are destined to fail by any Law God set earlier, whether The Garden Law, given infinite time as an immortal, or Moses's Law, as finite sin-stained mortal human.  And when (A1:omniscient), God Knows what He Makes ... which is 100% sinners from BC to today.  If perfection was possible in this dimension, it would exist as perfection on Earth.

VERSES:
Psalm:143:"2 And do not enter into judgment with Your servant, For in Your sight no man living is righteous."
Galatians:2:"16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.";3:"10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them"
Acts 13:"39 and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses"
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The problem is that such scriptural quotes deal with man after the fall.  They are true, but they do not necessarily pertain to Adam and Eve, to humanity as it was created.  “It was through one man that sin entered the world,” says St. Paul (Romans 5:12), “and through sin death.”  Adam and Eve lived CATEGORICALLY different lives before the fall, and the fall shattered not only their humanity but also the world.  They lived in Paradise, and were in full possession of their human traits like reason and passion – these traits which were darkened after the fall.  For more reading on the fall, dig the Catechism:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p7.htm

For an interesting take on this, I’d recommend C. S. Lewis’ “Perelandra” ( http://tinyurl.com/55x7c9 ), the 2nd book in his “space trilogy” (it can be read on it’s own.

Christ, the second Adam, himself took on human nature in its fullness, as it was created by an entirely good God.  It was through the free actions of the creatures God created that Sin and death happened, and thereby the imperfections spoken of in the passages you quoted above.

YOU WROTE:
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RESPONSE: (I1) still stands.  Created HOWEVER they were, THEY were destined to fail, AND GOD KNEW THEY WOULD FAIL (A2 OMNISCIENT).  YHVH The ultimate engineer MADE THEM IMPERFECT INNER SOULS, KNOWINGLY (A2 omniscient)(A4 all sin).  God Creates a universe of implicitly destined suffering earth, with wars, genocides, concentration camps, accidents, ignorance, illness, et cetera, ALL KNOWINGLY BY YHVH (A2 omniscient).   
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God knew that humanity would fall because he saw it happened before we did it, as he is outside of time.  He is with you now in this moment, and “now” at your birth, and “now at your death, and all stops in between, for you and for everyone at all places and times, all as one cosmic “now”.

He knows that tomorrow you will sin by taking something which is not yours because he is with you then “now”, seeing you do it, even though we are not chronologically at that moment.  

God knows all that can be known, including the whole scope of human history, because all of it is contained within Him.

God did not created them imperfect.  He created them “very good” (as opposed to the “good” of the rest of the world) for they were in his image.  He created them with the REAL ABILITY to fall, but not with the NECESSITY of falling.  That did happen, but it happened FREELY and not simply because he created.

Nevertheless “God has let them all go against his orders, so that he might have mercy on them all” (Romans 11:32).  God permits Evil, he does not cause it.  Evil is not a thing with positive existence, but merely a privation or lacking of Good.  As all that is cold is simply a lack of heat (and you can’t get colder than 0 K, but you can keep getting hotter); all that is dark is lacking light; and all that is evil is simply a rejection of the Good, Who is God.

YOU WROTE:
------ And punishes ALL HUMANS with a descendant Sin Virus by CREATION DESIGN, and WE are not even made so-called perfect like Adam and Eve.  Perfect, is not so perfect, with God the ultimate knowing engineer (A4)
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But, do you not see, that you could not have a better representative than Adam and Eve who were perfect and yet chose the way of sin?  We often think “if only he’d put ME in that garden, I’d have held out” but this is doubtful at the least because they were better than we are, and they literally represented us all.

But as Adam was the primordial human representative, so too is Christ our representative, a point St. Paul often makes and that I’ve quoted before.

YOU WROTE
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RESPONSE: [When God Omnisciently Knows] [ALL of His children] [will turn to sin (except Himself as Jesus)], and [God] tell[s all] to stop, and then follow it with "if you don't, you'll be sorry[, surely die, work with briers, labor childbirth, suffer wars, genocides, accidents, concentration camps, illness, ignorance, et cetera.]" When [God Knowingly Permits] [all humans] fall later [exactly as HE KNEW WOULD HAPPEN OMNISCIENTLY], it's never a joyful "I told you so" moment, but a "this is the natural fruit of your decisions, and why I warned you against this course of action" moment.
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No, it’s not joyful as such (though St. Augustine speaks of original sin as “that happy fault” which occasioned the supreme sacrifice of God becoming man in Christ Jesus).

YOU WROTE
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RESPONSE: So God Makes sadness for Himself and all concerned, knowingly (A2 omniscient).  God KNOWS ALL THESE DIRE THINGS WILL HAPPEN (why I warned you against this course of action (I SAW IT ALL BEFORE OMNISCIENTLY)).  GOD KNEW HE would create souls that would choose not to worship His ways.  God Knowingly creates the evils and sadnesses via His Creation He Knows so well needs His Help.
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I do not think that he is Sad per se.  God is eternally perfect and lacking in nothing, including beatitude/happiness.

God knew they would happen, but that greater things would be able to happen because he would permit them.

Because we can suffer, we can have compassion.  Because we can suffer we can truly love others and deny ourselves.  Because we can suffer we can forsake our own lives for Him.  And in the grand scheme of things, this compassion, this love, this forsaking of self, outweighs the evil of suffering and our present condition.  

Because we fell, Christ could redeem us, becoming one with us.

YOU WROTE
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Think!?  Not Know, Gnosis, Logos.  THEREFORE BY YOUR BELIEF, God CANNOT create souls 100% destined for salvation.  God is an imperfect GOOD creator.   ------
God cannot create souls 100% free and 100% destined for heaven, because if they are free, then whether or not they make it to heaven is not up to him, but is TRULY up to them, the free agents.  He offers himself fully, completely and unreservedly to his creatures, and they are FREE to respond.  

This is no more a lacking in God than his inability to create round squares or make 2 and 2 equal 434.2.  We’re either free to decide to love him, or we’re not and we’re robots.  As soon as you make humanity “free”, you give up the “100%” control.

YOU WROTE:
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God KNOWS He creates SUFFERING and HELL for some of His Creation, but God is NOT RESPONSIBLE for what God KNOWINGLY CREATES IMPERFECTLY.  Examine (I4)-RESPONSE, for Bible Verses, reference contradiction of what is possible-not-possible.
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1) Hell is primarily THE STATE OF SELF EXCLUSION FROM COMMUNION WITH GOD.  It is what happens to those who chose to remain apart from him.
2) It is reserved for only those who commit the only unpardonable sin, “blasphemy against the holy spirit” – but what this amounts to is simply refusing the love and forgiveness of God.
3) The primary punishment of Hell is SELF EXCLUSION FROM COMMUNION WITH GOD. (sorry for the all caps, I wish they’d let me italicize or bold on here)

Hell is Commonly imaged as “fire and brimstone” in and out of scripture; these are meant to be analogically impart an understanding of the nature of hell and are not necessarily literal (though they are not necessarily not, either!)  

Hell primarily is the state of self-exclusion from communion with God.  Remember, God does not force love.  He gives it freely and it must be freely accepted.  “God is not a rapist.”   C. S. Lewis wrote:

“Christianity asserts that every individual human being is going to live forever, and this must be either true or false.  Now there are a good many things which would not be worth bothering about if I were going to live only seventy years, but which I had better bother about very seriously if I am going to live for ever.  Perhaps my bad temper or my jealousy are gradually getting worse – so gradually that the increase in seventy years will not be very noticeable.  But it might be absolute hell in a million years:  In fact if Christianity is true, Hell is the precisely correct technical term for what it would be.”
Incidentally, both heaven and hell are described as places of fire.  The Highest choir of angels are in fact called “the Burning Ones” (i.e. the Seraphim”) because they behold the face of God.  The imagery of fire is meant to convey something more than physical appearance.  Fire can purify and it can consume and destroy.  

Moreover, God predestines no one to hell, and wills that all should be saved.  If all are saved in the end (which is possible, but doubtful) then his will prevails.  If some are not saved, that is because being Love who created freely, he gave up the reigns to his creation.

YOU WROTE:
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RESPONSE: (1) But the Bible Genesis gives no record of mercy, by correcting and removing their sin in love ... right-away allowing the suffering to the end of time for all.  No MERCY, nor FORGIVENESS, nor LONGSUFFERING, IN THAT TIME, when all things are possible with God.  GOOD GOD (A5) IS NOT FOUND IN GENESIS RIPPLING TO END OF TIME BY HIS DESIGN.  
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All things may be possible, but he does what is fitting and best, and we can assume that things are as they are for a reason.  That said, I do not see how you can say there is no mercy.  From that very moment, the path of all salvation history was laid out by God to effect the salvation of humanity, and the reconciliation of us all to Himself through Himself.  That it didn’t happen instantaneously doesn’t mean that it doesn’t ripple through all of history.

Christ himself, when he died, descended into hell to preach the gospel to those “who were disobedient in the days of Noah” (1 peter 3).  The power of his resurrection and defeat of sin rippled back to the very beginning of history, and even to those who were wicked, to present salvation to them.  

Meanwhile, all of the created world, fallen though it is, is still good – just disordered.  “God so loved the world” says that famous passage John 3:16, because the world was created good, and Man was created “very good”.

YOU WROTE:
------.  (2) Correction on point: ALL disobedience of God and His Ways (SIN) is insurrection to God: Romans 11:"30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief (disobedience, turning away).  Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.".  And that doesn't even cover natural accidents, uncorrectable, yet suffering.
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I don’t take your point…

YOU WROTE:
------ (3) We still die, even today.  Do you see IMMORTALS walking around in a GARDEN anymore, NOT having women-child-bearing pains, and NOT working from the sweat of their brow to support woman?  I see no such thing, the consequences of Adam and Eve working until the end of time by God's Created Design, until Jesus's return.  My issue still stands with your answer.
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Yes, presently death is part of the human condition. But that death is not the end of the story.  (also, the punishment for the woman was an INCREASE in the pangs of birth, not the creation of them, and that very well may have been due to a DECREASE in our true, god-given reasoning ability to cope with such pains.)  Pain and our passions are DISORDERED now, and wouldn’t exist as they do now had humanity not fallen – but this is all hypothetical and we could talk circles about this for hours and get nowhere but interesting speculation.

YOU WROTE:
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RESPONSE: If I were God, I would have removed their sin, punished JUST THEM, removed their knowledge, and let them go again, in perfection from them on in the Garden and put flaming swords around the tree, with MERCY and PATIENCE in their foolish ways (even though they are SO-CALLED PERFECT).  That's mercy, longsuffering, and kindness to them AND all the generations to the end of time.  
But they get spanked, and we all feel it!  The sins of the fathers, borne by the innocent children to the end of time.  
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Are you telling me that mercy means never letting people taste the fruits of what they’ve sewn?  No, sir.  That’s coddling, and God does not coddle.  This isn’t simple children’s’ games here.  This was a primordial choice of humanity.

YOU WROTE:
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Even if you accept Jesus, you still suffer all these things.  You can imagine what is NOT WRITTEN, Adam says "please forgive us God", God says, "Not this first time, sorry, but the ramifications to the end of this age are IRREVOKEABLE by the way I Set things up.  I can Show You no Mercy Here."
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And He suffered them too, even being sinless, because he is love.

You’ll notice Adam never asks for forgiveness.  He and Eve simply play the blame game, and instead of damning them to hell for all eternity, he lets them live, and settles them himself east of the garden. (Gen 3:24), and promises that he himself will redeem them (“I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel.” He says to the Serpent, who is Satan, forshadowing what God himself does in Christ Jesus, Himself Incarnate).

YOU WROTE:
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RESPONSE: You say it is contradiction that God Makes Good without Evil.  Many say, outside of time, God is beyond logic and contradiction, so ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE BY GOD ... BUT NO THEY AREN'T!?  Despite, Mathew:19:"25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? 26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God [not quite?] all things are possible."  NOT SO.Revelation:20:"14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." (I2, God doesn't save 100%, God CAN'T make that kind of free-will human., God creates and authors Known Death.)  He Makes the capacity of Rejection, He Makes Death of His Reject Humans
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All things which are possible are possible.  It is not possible to have a circle which is a square (boxing rings aside) because it is sheer nonsense.  That’s like faulting God because  he cannot “galkjeroihklmanedbo” or won’t “dlakngwekn2k 9ib9”.  Something which is a logical contradiction is not something at all, but merely a  “null set” of linguistic symbols strung together.  God cannot “make a flower that he did not make” because that is nonsense.  It’s not God’s fault, but simply a problem within human language and mind that makes us want to think that such things could be made.  There is no triangle with 4 sides, and God could not change that (except in changing the very meaning of “triangle” to that of “quadrilateral”, but that is not then creating a 4 sided triangle, but simply swapping words.

YOU WROTE:
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God's choices lie within Himself, as the Ultimate Free-Will to Good Ways.  God's suffering is real, and it is a temporal taste of the natural fruition that comes from allowing free-will finite humans, when looking for Love from humanity, producing: accidents, "natural" disasters, genocides, concentration camps, wars, disease, ignorance, et cetera.
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Bear in mind that God is eternal, and outside time.  If you suffererd seemingly immeasurable pain for 1 million years, but then experienced heaven for all eternity, that suffering would not be even a blip on the radar.  1,000,000 is not even a percent of a percent of a percent…of a percent of infinity.  So that we suffer in this life does not mean that those sufferings are the end-all of our existence, or that we will not be compensated.

…

I hope you fond that helpful.

I’m going to have to ask you to simplify your questions a bit if you’d like to continue.  I want to be thorough, but these are getting a bit long.  I’m not opposed to continuing this, so long as you can remain charitable and terse.

Peace of Christ,

-J.M.J. West