Expert: J.M.J. West - 8/5/2008

Question
Hello,

I do hope you are a trained apologist from verses and logics, otherwise chaos outisde of time and space is the option.  My question is regarding The Bible's account as many teach of The Garden of Eden and its ramifications through time.  Given these assumptions:

(A1) God is omnipotent all powerful.
(A2) God is omniscient all knowing.
(A3) Adam and Eve were created immortal and with free-will.
(A4) even finite-human engineering-omniscience knows that all free-will "systems" with accesible restriction rules to obey, will inevitably fail to obey when given infinite time.
(A5) God is goodness of ways, perfection, longsuffering patient, merciful, loving, etc.
(A6) God created all things, and by Him no thing was not created.

The issues to me appear to be:
(I1) Why does God create failure destined humans (A1)(A2), and given their certain failure (A2)(A4), then God subsequently punishes all humans with briers and death, even though he knows they are destined to fail (A2)(A5), which is like telling your children don't do X FOREVER to obey your parental wisdom, and when they inevitably fail, you punish every child on the planet with sure death and labor and toil, with (A5) implying that drawing lines, and following through on delivering promised suffering and infliction is GOOD TRAINING,

(I2) Why is Got not capable of creating soft free-will so that 100% of the souls will be saved (not-A5)(not-A1)(not-A2), as God only makes souls so potentially heavy, that not even God can lift them for salvation (A1), with His infinite power, patience, mercy, not saving, but building Hell to destroy souls in Revelation (A1)(not-A5).  In fact, if God is omnipotent and omniscient (A1)(A2), why didn't He SIMPLY create 100% saved free-will beings before time began, when cause and effect didn't apply to logic and God, so these temporal self contradiction can't exist in the first place, and He could have achieved PERFECTION in SALVATION, but only makes willy-nilly units for salvation that happen to go HIS WAY.

(I3) Why was God so short of longsuffering patience with Adam and Eve, but simply punishes them at their first disobedience, AND punishes them and their descendants to the end of time, for practical purposes (not-A5).

(I4) If God is omniscient, and omnipotent (A1)(A2), why can't He make ANY PERFECT good without knowingly complicitly ALLOWING even one iota of evil (A2), implying God is not omnipotent to not self-contradict, but then God is impotent in time-space free-will domains, creating a disunity, for which HE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR as (A6) implies responsibility for what He created.  Or is humanity not responsible for what humanity doesn't even-create, following in the image of God, who is actually NOT RESPONSIBLE regarding His created world of free will humans, when one is omniscient of the consequences, which implies that making apparent suffering in sub-units is not really suffering, so there is no self-contradiction (A5).

Answer
Shawn, those are very great questions, thank you!

YOU WROTE:
(A4) even finite-human engineering-omniscience knows that all free-will "systems" with accesible restriction rules to obey, will inevitably fail to obey when given infinite time.

I don't know that this is true.  That we DID fall does not logically entail that we MUST have fallen, and there is no evidence scripturally or logically that this MUST have been the case, only that it WAS the case.

YOU WROTE:
"(I1) Why does God create failure destined humans (A1)(A2), and given their certain failure (A2)(A4), then God subsequently punishes all humans with briers and death, even though he knows they are destined to fail (A2)(A5), which is like telling your children don't do X FOREVER to obey your parental wisdom, and when they inevitably fail, you punish every child on the planet with sure death and labor and toil, with (A5) implying that drawing lines, and following through on delivering promised suffering and infliction is GOOD TRAINING,"

I think you misunderstand the nature of punishments in general, and of these punishments in particular.

When I see my son trying to climb up on the counter, I tell him to stop, and then follow it with "if you don't, you'll be sorry."  When I see him fall later, it's never a joyful "I told you so" moment, but a "this is the natural fruit of your decisions, and why I warned you against this course of action" moment.

The first sin of our parents, that truly original sin, had dire consequences for humanity precisely because these primordial parents "The Man" and "The Woman" (as scripture itself addresses them - that's what "Adam" means, and how it addresses "Eve" until after the fall).

They were created in a way unique from how all of the rest of us are created - they did not have the stain of original sin, which is a darkening of human reason and intellect.  They were perfect exemplars of humanity, perfect representatives of us all, and for this reason all of humanity literally resided in these two representatives at the beginning of time.  And when they fell, it literally shattered human nature, because all of human nature literally resided in them.

But bear in mind also that this is only the very beginning of the story of salvation history, not the end.  It was this very event which necessitated God Himself becoming one of us.  Paul writes that just as sin and death entered the world through one man, so to does life enter it through one (cf. Romans 5:12-19)

YOU WROTE:
(I2) Why is Got not capable of creating soft free-will so that 100% of the souls will be saved (not-A5)(not-A1)(not-A2), as God only makes souls so potentially heavy, that not even God can lift them for salvation (A1), with His infinite power, patience, mercy, not saving, but building Hell to destroy souls in Revelation (A1)(not-A5).  In fact, if God is omnipotent and omniscient (A1)(A2), why didn't He SIMPLY create 100% saved free-will beings before time began, when cause and effect didn't apply to logic and God, so these temporal self contradiction can't exist in the first place, and He could have achieved PERFECTION in SALVATION, but only makes willy-nilly units for salvation that happen to go HIS WAY.

I think that creating "free will" that does what you want it to do 100% of the time is a contradiction.  That's like saying "why didn't God create circles that have corners?"  Love cannot be forced, and God, who is Love, is not a rapist.  God wanted us to be free to love Him and know Him, but this NECESSITATES that we be actually free to reject him - and if we are free to do so, then it is a REAL POSSIBILITY that could happen.  And we know it was a real possibility precisely because it DID happen (and while this is pure speculation on my part which probably wouldn’t apply to perfect people, I wonder if we’d wonder if we were really free ever had we never fallen).

God wills the salvation of all (1 Tim 2:3-4, 2 Peter 3:9), but not all are saved it would seem.  This however does not show a lack of power in God, but only that it reveals the true nature of Love and Salvation…it’s a two way street.  God cannot save those who do not want to be saved, because he cannot fully commune in love with those who refuse his love.  People may persist in

YOU WROTE:
(I3) Why was God so short of longsuffering patience with Adam and Eve, but simply punishes them at their first disobedience, AND punishes them and their descendants to the end of time, for practical purposes (not-A5).

Well, in the first place, he had commanded Adam at the start – Adam had heard the mandate of God directly, and the doom which lay upon the action.  Yet Adam and Eve sought to be “like God, but without God”, turning against their one source of ultimate happiness.

Secondly, it wasn’t simple disobedience but insurrection, a turning against.

Third, they are not punished to the end of time, and this self-same deity became one of them and shared in their sufferings and misery, that he might thus elevate them.

YOU WROTE:
(I4) If God is omniscient, and omnipotent (A1)(A2), why can't He make ANY PERFECT good without knowingly complicitly ALLOWING even one iota of evil (A2), implying God is not omnipotent to not self-contradict, but then God is impotent in time-space free-will domains, creating a disunity, for which HE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR as (A6) implies responsibility for what He created.  

God being “omnipotent” doesn’t mean he can do ANYTHING.  He cannot do what is a logical contradiction, and so while he positively wills no evil to happen, he permissively allows it that from the potentiality for evil he can bring greater good.  He is responsible for creating creatures which were free to reject him, not for their rejection of Him.

YOU WROTE:
Or is humanity not responsible for what humanity doesn't even-create, following in the image of God, who is actually NOT RESPONSIBLE regarding His created world of free will humans, when one is omniscient of the consequences, which implies that making apparent suffering in sub-units is not really suffering, so there is no self-contradiction (A5).

I don’t fully grasp your meaning here, but I take it you’re asking that if God is not responsible for evil, then neither are we responsible for our actions and our suffering is then not real punishment or suffering; is that right?

If so, then I’d disagree, because the choices we choose lay within us and upon us as free agents.  Our suffering is real, and it is a temporal taste of the natural fruition that comes from rejecting Love.  The fruit of rejecting Love Himself hurts us in ways deeper than a burn victim can know in this life because it’s the very rejection of ourselves and our nature – the way that we were created.  It is the ultimate form of delusion, of loss, and of suffering.  

...

I hope that begins to answer your questions.  I'd be more than happy to go further into this matter if you like to ask follow-ups.

Peace of Christ,

-J.M.J. West