Expert: Fr. Michael - 10/25/2006

Question
I notice as a reponse to the validity of the Vatican II council you say that "several" church councils of the past have been condemned by the popes and you cite the "Synod of Pistoia".  Considering that this particular council at its opening session had 234 members present but by the fifth session 246 attended, of whom 180 were pastors, 13 canons, 12 chaplains, 28 simple priests of the secular clergy, and 13 regulars.  This synod was not convoked by the Pope.  The bishop who did convoke the synod, Scipio de’ Ricci, Bishop of Pistoia and Prato, was a Jansenistic sympathizer.  Jansenism was heresy so it was right that the pope would condemn such a synod.  Vatican II was quite different as it was a council convoked by the Pope of the Roman Catholic Church and was attended by bishops and clergy from all over the world.  The Holy Spirit would have to be present and guiding such a gathering as scripture says, "Where two or more are gathered....." whether the council was "pastoral" or not.  Also, a young bishop by the name of Karol Woytiwa was present as well as our current pope Benedict the XVI at the Vatican II council.  His later Pontificate put his seal of approval on the council. Benedict XVI has also by put his approval of the council in the implementing of Vatican II liturgical changes during Pope John Paul II pontificate as well as his own.  Changes are still coming.  Those changes do nothing to change the fact that Jesus Christ died for our sins, rose again from the dead, established his church ie. kingdom on earth, and took his seat at the right hand of the Father.  Christ still guides the Catholic church from heaven by his spirit here on earth.  Your response said nothing of why you believe the council was not guided by the Holy Spirit any more or less than any other council.

Peace be with you,

M.M. Nall
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The text above is a follow-up to ...

-----Question-----
Hello Father,

While I deeply respect the call for a return to more traditional Catholicism I wonder what makes the Vatican II council any different from any previous council in regard to the official church teachings.  If the Vatican II council gathered the church leaders from all over the world together, and doctrine, dogma, and traditions were discussed and debated just like every other council, why would the holy spirit not be present and guiding this council as it was every other great council?  It seems to me that if the "Church" the pillar and foundation of truth as 1 Timothy 3:15 states, gathers then the Holy Spirit is always present and guiding the decisions and decrees that stem from any the gathering.

Your brother in Christ,
M.M. Nall
-----Answer-----
Neither did Pope John XXIII, who convoked the council, authorize the council to treat dogma nor did Pope Paul VI, who promulgated the documents of the council, intend them to be part of the essential Magisterium of the Church.  Both regarded the council to be pastoral, not dogmatic, in
nature, and therefore not part of the essential Magisterium of the Church.

What conclusion, therefore, can be drawn about the authority of Vatican II?  That, according to the two popes of the council, it was merely pastoral in nature and is not to be accorded the authority of the essential Magisterium of the Church.  In holding that understanding, Catholics are simply obeying the words of the two popes themselves.  Vatican II, therefore, as a pastoral council, has no dogmatic force and
can be held to be imprudent or even in error, with no compromise to one's Catholic faith.  Several Church councils in the past have been condemned by the popes (e.g., that of Pistoia, which passed items similar to Vatican II).

The canonical situation is well summarized by one modern
theologian as follows:  "Practical decisions of churchmen, even the highest authorities, the pope, bishops, and priests, are something quite different (from that of de fide statements of truth, to which we owe assent of belief).
"We do not say, for example, that a command of a pope or decision of a pope to call a council is true or not.  We can say that it is wise or not ... it is inopportune or not....  And we Catholics are never obliged to believe that a given command, or given decision of anyone, including the pope, is necessarily that of the Holy Ghost.

"There is a kind of papolatry (attribution to the pope of divine powers, which he does not have) going around.  It acts as if no matter what comes out of Rome, it must have been inspired by the Holy Ghost.  This line of thinking holds, for example, that if Vatican II was called, it means that the Holy Ghost wanted to call it.  But this is not
necessarily the case.

"Convoking Vatican II was a personal decision of Pope John XXIII.  He may have thought God was telling him to call it, but who knows?  He has no special charism that guarantees he would recognize such a decision as coming from the Holy  with theological certitude.

"We can say that the Pope has the power to call a council.  We can say that the authorities in the Church can call upon the Holy Ghost to guarantee, in a very narrow set of cases, that what comes from this council is de fide.  And nothing in Vatican II was pronounced de fide....  To call a council is a practical decision of the pope.  A person may piously believe that God inspired it.  But no one can say that this is an object of faith."

"There will be no infallible definitions.  All that was done by former Councils.  That is enough.  --Pope John XXIII (Gaudet Mater Ecclesia, October 11, 1962)

The Council never did openly declare any of its teaching as binding on the Church.  Never in the history of the Catholic Church had a Council taken pains to declare that it was NOT teaching infallibly.  The pope who summoned the Council and the pope who promulgated its decrees made it clear that Vatican II was a pastoral, not a dogmatic Council.  Catholics are, therefore, within their rights
to make reservations regarding any novelties emanating from Vatican II that are out of step with Sacred Tradition and the previous continuous Magisterium (official teaching) of the Church.

In fact, it is canonically possible for a future pope to annul the outcome of the council, as it was merely a pastoral council.  The Council of Ephesus in 449, which was regularly called and attended by all the East and by legates from Pope St. Leo the Great, was annulled by that pope's subsequent opposition to it and branded the "Robber's
Council" (Latrocinium).  

Answer
The Council of Pistoia is instructive because, rather than ignorning it, Pius VI condemned it for many of the things that are associated with the "spirit" of Vatican II:

* that there should be only one "table" in each church and that it should not be ornamented with flowers or relics
* that processions in honor of the Blessed Virgin and of the Saints, the Rosary, the Way of the Cross, and images should be suppressed
* that a "simplified" Mass said entirely out loud in the vernacular.

These notions were condemned by Pope Pius VI as "rash, offensive to pious ears, insulting to the Church, favorable to the charges of heretics against it."

What John Paul II had to say about the Council is irrelevant, as he cannot change the historical, legal status of the Council.  The determination of the question of the limited authority of the Council legally lay only in the hands of the pope who called the Council (John XXIII) and the pope who ended it (Paul VI).

Nevertheless, even John Paul II admitted the merely pastoral nature of the Council when he stated in his October 25, 1985 Angelus Message:  "Pope John conceived the Council as an eminently pastoral event."

Nor can we forget the chilling warning against the consequences of the Council just seven years after its close, by the very pope who promulgated it as a pastoral council:

"We have the impression that through some cracks in the wall the smoke of Satan has entered the temple of God:  it is doubt, uncertainty, questioning, dissatisfaction, confrontation.... We thought that after the Council a day of sunshine would have dawned for the history of the Church.  What dawned, instead, was a day of clouds and storms, of darkness, of searching and uncertainties."  --Pope Paul VI, June 29, 1972, Sermon during the Mass for Sts. Peter &
Paul, on the occasion of the ninth anniversary of his Coronation

That statement hardly sounds like a full-throated acceptance that "the council was not guided by the Holy Spirit any more or less than any other council."

We stand with the pope on his statement and analysis, which we believe to be eminently correct.  That is our final statement on the matter.