Expert: Sal - 4/9/2007

Question
QUESTION: Hi Sal, I was reading an article about the process of canonization, particularly as it pertains to the late Pope John Paul II. A nun claimed to have been healed from Parkinsons disease after praying to the late Pope along with a group of sisters.
Seeing that you claim to be able to give Biblical backing to the beliefs of the Catholic church, what are your thoughts on this. From my studies of God's word, praying to anyone aside from God is a great sin.
ANSWER: Dear Owen:

Thanks for the question. Catholics have always believed that Christians may pray for one another in this life and in the next. Catholics view Christians as one family (Romans 12:5) with God as our Father (Ephesians 4:5-6). What father would not be pleased when his children help one another? Catholics believe that this unity shared by Christians is very profound. “If one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all members share its joy” (1 Corinthians 12:26). The fact that God’s children can and should help one another by prayer is beyond dispute. “I beg you brothers, for the sake of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of the Spirit, join me in the struggle by your prayers to God on my behalf” (Romans 15:30). “But you must help us with your prayers, so that on our behalf God may be thanked for the gift granted us through the prayers of so many” (2 Corinthians 1:11). Other examples of intercessory prayer for other Christians may be found in Ephesians 6:18-20; Philippians 1:19; Colossians 4:24; 1 Thessalonians 5:25; 2 Thessalonians 1:11; 3:1-2; Philemon 22; James 5:13-16, and 1 John 5:16. We even have biblical examples of praying for those who are not united with God’s family (Matthew 5:44 and 1 Timothy 2:1-4).

Catholics do not pray to the saints in the same way as we do to God. All prayer is directed to God. However, Catholics do ask for saints to pray with us to God. We believe in the communion of saints. That means that those Christians who have died are still in communion with Christians still here on earth. They still care about our needs from heaven just as they did while here with us. The Bible gives us clear examples of believers who have left this life still caring for, and interceding for, other believers.

In the Old Testament we read of Judas Maccabeus who related a vision that God had given to him concerning deceased believers. “What he saw was this: Onias, the former high priest…was praying with outstretched arms for the whole Jewish community. Then in the same way another man appeared…Onias then said of him, ‘This is God’s prophet Jeremiah, who loves his brethren and fervently prays for his people and their holy city’” (2 Maccabees 15:12-14). So here we have evidence of deceased believers, a high priest and a great prophet, continuing their intercession for God’s people even after their deaths.

Also in the Old Testament which did not have the full revelation of God (see Hebrews 1:1-2) we find an understanding that one may pray for another. “If a man sins against another man, one can intercede for him with the LORD” (1 Samuel 2:25).

Jesus informs us that the faithful that have left this life are still alive to God. “Moses in the passage about the bush…called the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. All are alive to Him” (Luke 20: 37-38). Jesus graphically demonstrated this truth on the Mount of Transfiguration where he spoke to Elijah and Moses (Matthew 17:3). Elijah may never have died since he was taken up to heaven while apparently still alive (2 Kings 2:11). Moses, however, had certainly died long ago (Deuteronomy 34:5-8). In the New Testament we read of Christians in heaven interceding for those on earth. “Along with their harps, the elders were holding vessels of gold filled with aromatic spices which were the prayers of God’s holy people” (Revelation 5:8).  

Catholics believe that the Bible would not so strongly recommend and show the practice of intercessory prayer if it were not of great benefit to us. One such benefit is that the strong faith of the saints can serve to support our weaknesses. The saints can supply what is so lacking in our own faith. Jesus illustrated this by helping someone based on the faith of others. Examples of this can be found in Matthew 8:5-13; 15:22-28; Mark 2:1-5; 9:17-29; Luke 8:41-42, 49-55.

Catholics reason that if we are to pray for one another while here on earth (I Timothy 2:11), and our brothers and sisters who have left this life are alive before God (Mark 9:4), and if the prayers of a holy person are very powerful (James 5:16), and if those Christians in heaven have been made perfect (Hebrews 12:22-23; Revelation 21:27), then it follows that the prayers of the saints in heaven must be infinitely more powerful than the prayers of the sinners here on earth. Therefore, we rightly and wisely seek the intercession of the saints.

If I can be of further help please let me know.

God Bless You,
Sal


---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hi Sal,
I have no problem with the concept of intercessory prayer, that's clearly Biblical. I have a problem with praying to another being apart from God, especially a dead person, that's clearly unbiblical.
The article that I read clearly stated that these nuns were praying to their late pope, who obviously passed away two years ago. I cannot recall anywhere in my Bible where we are ever instructed to pray to each other or to the dead. We are, however, instructed to pray FOR each other as you so rightly stated. Praying to another person, apart from God, and intercessory prayer are two different things.
I believe that our understanding of the state of the dead is where the difference lies. When a person dies, he is dead. Ecclesiastes 9:5,6 & Psalm 146:4 says that at the point of death, a man’s thoughts perish; he doesn’t know anything. All of his emotions cease to be. Not even David, who is described as a man after God’s own heart had been resurrected to Heaven. In fact Paul describes him as being “both dead and buried” (Acts 2:29). I could share a plethora of texts with you, but I think these should suffice. Plain and simple, with no offence intended, the pope is “both dead and buried” as well.
Concerning the dead, there are some exceptions. Enoch did not taste death as his predecessors but was taken up into Heaven. You also mentioned Moses and Elijah who are also in Heaven. There are a host of others as well. But we cannot take these examples as the rule of thumb and apply it to all who lived and died in Christ. John 5:28,29 clearly states that a day is coming when all who are in the graves will hear His voice. It describes two resurrections, one for the righteous and one for the unrighteous. It is at this point that God doles out the fate of all who have lived and died.
Answer this: If we immediately go to Heaven or Hell at death, what would be the point of a resurrection?

Owen

P.S. There is ONLY ONE mediator between God and man [It’s not the pope], it’s the man Christ Jesus. I Timothy 2:5

ANSWER: Dear Owen:

Thank you for the further questions. I think that the major difficulty that you have with intercessory prayer is your erroneous belief that the dead are unconscious. Let's look at Eccl. 9 and see if it means what you mentioned.

The first thing to remember when studying any passage is that we must always read it in context. We must consider whatever passage we are attempting to interpret in its immediate context, in the context of the letter or book in which the passage occurs, and finally, in the context of the rest of the Bible. We must never say that one verse proves something without considering other verses relating to the same subject. For instance, in studying the state of the dead as presented in the Book of Ecclesiastes one should not say that one verse (Eccl. 9:5) proves man's soul is unconscious after death anymore than one verse (Eccl. 12:7) proves he is not.

Before we look at the verse (9:5) in question, some background information. Ecclesiastes is traditionally ascribed to Solomon (see 1:1, 12, 16; 2:9). However, the book appears to have been written centuries after Solomon lived (10 century B.C.). The writer's use of the Solomonic persona was a common literary device. The use of a well-known, respected person's name was commonly employed in order to lend greater authority to the writing. This fact, if true, does not in anyway negate the book's inspired character.

Those who argue a belief, in this case Soul Sleep, from the Old Testament make two common mistakes. One is that they often wrest a passage from its context and thrust on it an interpretation not intended or even imagined by its original author. The other common mistake is that they fail to recognize the principal of progressive revelation. This principal is that God doesn't reveal things completely to man at first. He usually reveals a truth slowly over time. He knows when His people are prepared for a truth. Jesus gave us a clear example of how progressive revelation works in his Church. “I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. When he comes, however, being the Spirit of truth he will guide you to all truth” (Jn. 16:12-13). It may also be helpful to remember that those in the Old Covenant did not have nearly the insight into a subject as those in the New Covenant have due to the fuller revelation granted to those in the New Covenant. “In the past, God spoke in fragmentary and varied ways to our fathers through the prophets; in this, the final age, he has spoken to us through his Son…” (Heb. 1:1-2).

The major theme of Ecclesiastes is “all is vanity” (1:2). This term or its equivalent occurs 27 times in the book. The theme of the book is not the state of the dead as the Seventh Day Adventists (SDA) would have one believe. In fact the author seems to be unconcerned with the state of the dead. His concern seems to be to show that a life apart from God is vain or worthless.

The key to understanding Ecclesiastes is the phrase “under the sun” which occurs 29 times in the book. This important phrase means as things appear from an earthly perspective. The author, for the most part, does not concern himself with the realities of the afterlife. His book is not meant to be a dogmatic statement on the state of the dead. The author tells us as much when he writes, “Who knows if the life-breath of the children of men goes upward…” (3:21).

This book is a commentary on the pointlessness of our physical existence apart from God. Ecclesiastes must be understood in the context of the rest of the Bible. The rest of the Bible plainly teaches that the dead are conscious (see I Sam. 28:12-20; Is. 14:9ff.; Lk. 16:19-31, 20:38, 23:40-43; Rom. 14:9; II Cor. 5:6-9; Phil. 1:22-25; I Thes. 5:10; Heb. 12:1; I Pt. 3:18-19, 4:6; Rev. 6:9-10). The Bible also plainly teaches that man's final destiny is either eternal life with God or eternal life separated from Him (see Mt. 25:31-46; Mk. 3:28-29; Lk. 12:10; Jn. 3:14-18; II Thes. 1:9; Rev. 20:10, 22:12-15). With that in mind let's look at the verse in question: “For the living know that they are to die, but the dead no longer know anything. There is no further recompense for them, because all memory of them is lost” (Eccl. 9:5).

Let's keep in mind that in properly interpreting a passage we must consider both the immediate and remote contexts, i.e. in the context of the entire book and in the context of the entire Bible. In order to obtain the immediate context we must study what precedes and what follows v. 5. The first verse of chapter nine restates the book's major theme of vanity. “Love from hatred man cannot tell; both appear equally vain…” The next verse is key to understanding what follows.

“…there is the same lot for all, for the just and the wicked, for the good and the bad, for the clean and the unclean, for him who offers sacrifice and him who does not. As it is for the good man, so it is for the sinner; as it is for him who swears rashly, so it is for him who fears an oath” (v. 2).

This verse makes it clear that the author is speaking in earthly terms of how things appear. It certainly cannot be interpreted to mean that “the just and the wicked” have the same eternal consequences. Such an interpretation is absolutely refuted by the entirety of Scripture. “Some (the dead) shall live forever, others shall be an everlasting horror and disgrace” (Dan. 12:2). “These (the condemned) will go off to eternal punishment and the just to eternal life” (Mt. 25:46). Accordingly, what follows v. 2 must be interpreted in context as referring to the earthly appearance of things not to the heavenly reality.

In fact the next verse makes this crystal clear. “Among all things which happen under the sun, this is the worst, that things turn out the same for all” (v. 3). The key phrase in this verse is “under the sun” which means as things appear in this life from an earthly perspective or simply put: how things look to us. In context this verse can only mean that we all physically die not that our eternal destiny is the same regardless of how we lived our lives. Any honest exegete of Scripture will admit this. Unfortunately, SDA apologists commonly practice eisegesis, the reading into Scripture something that is not there, as opposed to using the proper interpretive method of exegesis, the reading out of Scripture what is actually there.

In v. 4 the author notes that the living still have hope because they can repent and please God while the dead have no such hope. Their eternal destiny has been unalterably fixed since they have already been judged. The author finishes v. 4 by illustrating this concept. “…a live dog (a Gentile?) is better off than a dead lion (a Jew?).” To the Jew the dog is the vilest of creatures. Yet it is preferable to be a live vile creature then a dead noble creature.

Now we come to v. 5. The first half of which reads, “For the living know that they are to die, but the dead no longer know anything.” The context thus far has been how things appear in this life. The statement that “the dead no longer know anything” must be qualified by the immediate context. The author is not commenting on the state of the dead at all, but rather on the fact that the dead cannot do anything because they are no longer “under the sun”. The statement, “For the living know that they are to die” follows the statement, “among the living there is hope” (v. 4). As I have suggested this hope is the hope of getting one's life right with God. This, I believe, is what the author is referring to when he writes, “For the living know that they are to die.” The importance of that statement is that the living can react to this knowledge by repenting of evil ways and turning to God. On the other hand, the dead cannot repent because they “no longer know anything” under the sun for judgment has come to them.

This verse concludes, “There is no further recompense for them, because all memory of them is lost.” No further recompense means, in context, no further reward relative to achievements being accomplished in this life “under the sun”. For we know with certainty that reward does await those that die in God's good graces. “Be glad and rejoice, for your reward is great in heaven” (Mt. 5:12; see also Mt. 16:27; I Cor. 3:14; Rev. 22:12). The last part of the verse, “all memory of them is lost” does not mean that the dead are forgotten. The dead may appear forgotten from an earthly perspective, but, again, this is not true from a heavenly perspective (see Is. 49:14-15; Mt. 22:31-32; Heb. 6:10). It should be obvious by now that the author is completely unconcerned with heavenly realities at this point. Only at the end of his book does the author concern himself with the heavenly realities of the afterlife (see esp. 12:7).

The verse that follows v. 5 is also very important in determining the immediate context. “For them, love and hatred and rivalry have long since perished. They will never again have part in anything that is done under the sun” (v. 6). The dead cease to love, hate, and have rivalries in this life “under the sun”. It is not because they are unconscious as the SDA falsely teach. “There are in the end three things that last: faith, hope, and love, and the greatest of these is love” (I Cor. 13:13). So we can be sure that love does not perish in the afterlife. Yet Eccl. 9:6 does seem to state that love does perish. This apparent contradiction is easily rectified if one notes the context. The author of Ecclesiastes is concern with the earthly perspective- how things appear “under the sun”. St. Paul in this passage from I Corinthians is concerned with the heavenly reality. Simply put: the dead body does not love, the saint in heaven does (see Rev. 5:8).

The last half of v. 6, “They will never again have part in anything done under the sun” if taken as the SDA take v. 5 would logically lead one to conclude that there is no resurrection for us. This is completely antithetical to the gospel. “And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is void of content and your faith is empty too” (I Cor. 15:14). “If we have been united with him through likeness to his death, so shall we be through a like resurrection” (Rom. 6:5; see also Phil 3:10-11; II Tim. 2:11-12; Rev. 20:4-6). Of course we must not follow SDA logic, the author is actually making an observation concerning what he sees physically happen “under the sun”. He sees what we do: the dead remain physically dead. I believe that I have shown that the immediate context of Eccl. 9:5 is only referring to the earthly perspective not to the heavenly reality.

Now let's take a brief look at the context of the entire book. “The wise man has eyes in his head, but the fool walks in darkness. Yet I know that one lot befalls both of them” (2:14). From an earthly perspective both have the same fate-physical death. It makes no difference if one is a wise man or a fool as far as one can see. “The fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God'” (Psalm14:1; 53:2). In such a case as that it would most definitely matter whether one believes in the existence of God or not, but that is from a heavenly perspective with which the author of Ecclesiastes is unconcerned. He is concerned with how things appear “under the sun” (2:19). “For the lot of man and beast is one lot; the one dies as well as the other. Both have the same life-breath, and man has no advantage over the beast; but all is vanity” (3:19). Both man and beast physically die due to sin coming into the world (see Gen. 2:16-17; 3:3; Rom. 5:12; 8:20-22). Therefore, to the human eye it appears that both have the same lot in life “under the sun” (3:16). However, the reality is that man and beast are not equal before God. “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness” (Gen. 1:26). “Let them (man) have dominion…” (Gen. 1:26). “God created man in His image…” (Gen. 1:27). “God…blew into his nostrils the breath of life…” (Gen. 2:7). All these passages contradict a literal reading of Eccl. 3:19. Man and beast do not have the same lot in eternity. “Beast” in Eccl. 3:19 may refer to the wicked (see vv. 16-18), but the same would apply nonetheless. Both the wicked and the just die physically, but they do not share the same eternal destiny (for example see Mt. 25:31-46). I believe that these examples illustrate that the context of the entire book of Ecclesiastes is concerned with this life of vanity under the sun. This fits perfectly with what we have already seen is the immediate context of 9:5.

Now let's study 9:5 in the remote context of the rest Bible. I have previously cited numerous passages from the Bible that should prove to any honest student of the Bible that God's word teaches the consciousness of the dead. One such passage that I have thus far not referenced is found in II Maccabees. Some do not accept this book as inspired. Even so at the very least it does show that the Jews held the belief that the dead were conscious and active. II Maccabees is part of the Hebrew Bible known as the Septuagint. Jesus, the Apostles, and the early Church Fathers repeatedly quoted from this version of the Old Testament (cf. Heb 11:35 with II Mac. 7, for example). It may be informative to note that II Maccabees was eventually rejected by the Jews not because it taught some outlandish notions, but because the Jews could not find any Hebrew originals. They only could find Greek versions. They reasoned that since God only spoke to His people by the Hebrew language any books for which Hebrew versions could not be found must not be inspired. This reasoning is, of course, very flawed. If we held to this reasoning we would have to reject the entire New Testament since we only have Greek versions of all its books. In this important passage in II Maccabees we read of the deceased high priest Onias and the deceased prophet Jeremiah both actively interceding for God's people.

“…he cheered them all by relating a dream, a kind of vision, worthy of belief. What he saw was this: Onias, the former high priest, a good and virtuous man… was praying with outstretched arms for the whole Jewish community. Then in the same way another man appeared, distinguished by his white hair and dignity…Onias then said of him, ‘This is God's prophet Jeremiah, who loves his brethren and fervently prays for his people and their holy city'” (II Maccabees 15:11-14).

In conclusion, the SDA have failed to use proper exegetical rules of contextual interpretation and so have arrived at a completely invalid interpretation of Ecclesiastes 9:5. Further they have not understood or do not consider the author's original intent. The intention of the author becomes obvious if one reads the entire book in context. The author's intention was not to give us truth concerning the state of the dead, but rather to express his personal reflection on how life appears from an earthly perspective “under the sun”. Note how the SDA take as literal “the dead know nothing” in an attempt to buttress an unbiblical doctrine. Yet they avoid the literal interpretation of other statements such as the denial of the resurrection in 9:6, the denial of a reward for the righteous in 9:5, the denial that it matters how one lives one's life in 9:2-3, and the denial that man is spiritually superior to the beasts in 3:19. In other words, the SDA ignores the context when it suits their purpose (they also do this elsewhere, for example, concerning the 7th day Sabbath and Is. 66:23). This helps them to deceive those who are ignorant of, or have a poor understanding of, the proper way to interpret the Bible. The author of Ecclesiastes is warning us that a life apart from God has no meaning or significance. He also tells us that the dead are powerless to change their eternal destiny. Therefore, the author warns us to repent and change our lives before it is too late. “The last word, when all is heard: Fear God and keep His commandments, for this is man's all; because God will bring to judgment every work, with all its hidden qualities, whether good or bad” (Eccl. 12:13-14).

The nuns were not praying to John Paul for him to perform a miracle. They were praying for him to intercede for them with the one mediator Jesus. This is based on the belief that those in heaven are still concerned with those that they have left behind. It is based on the belief that the prayers of those in heaven are more powerful than ours because they have been made perfect.

God Be With You,
Sal


---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hi Sal,
Thanks for the speedy reply. No, I did not run away. I actually tried to send my reply to you last week on several occasions but was having some technical difficulties. I do hope that you had a great weekend, I did.

I had to really absorb your message carefully. You said a lot of things, which were new to me. Placing our emotions aside, let’s look at the section of passages that you offered to support your belief in the conscious dead.

I have singled out I Sam. 28:12-20 since it was the first one offered, and I perceive, your most potent. This passage tells the story of Saul conjuring up the spirit of Samuel the prophet through a witch or sorcerer. The situation was very bad for Saul. The Philistines were waging war with Israel and Saul was in bad terms with God. Saul had destroyed all the witches and sorcerers in the land according to God’s command (I Sam. 28:3, Lev. 20:27). To make matters worse, his trusted prophet, Samuel was dead. Ask yourself these questions:

o   How is it possible for Saul, a man who is rejected of God, to circumvent God’s authority and speak to one who was dead?
o   If “Samuel” was indeed in a conscious state, where would he be? In Heaven (above) or in Hell (below)?
o   If “Samuel” was indeed conscious, how is it that he refers to himself as being asleep? Ie. “Why hast thour disquieted me?”
o   Who was Saul really talking to? Here’s a clue
o   Can Satan impersonate the dead?
o   If “Samuel” was in Heaven wouldn’t he have descended instead of coming up to Saul?

Final points on this passage:
1.   Saul used witchcraft to speak to “Samuel”, Sorcery was forbidden by God (Lev. 19:31).
2.   “Samuel” was brought up by a forbidden method, sorcery.
3.   God was not in speaking terms with Saul (I Sam. 28:6,15).
4.   Saul used deception when dealing with the sorcerer (I Sam. 28:8, Ps. 66:18).
5.   When “Samuel” is raised, he comes up from the earth not down from Heaven (I Sam. 28:14).
6.   “Samuel” said to Saul, “Why hast thou disquieted me to bring me up?”. In other words “Samuel” was resting and Saul was waking him from his rest. This jives nicely with the words of Jesus describing Lazarus, who had been dead for four days. “Our friend Lazarus sleepeth” John 11:11.
7.   It was only the sorcerer who is described as seeing “Samuel” (see I Sam. 28:12,14).  Most likely Saul spoke to “Samuel” through the sorcerer/medium.
8.   The only person capable of raising Samuel from the dead is Jesus and apparently He was not involved (Rev. 1:18).
9.   Saul died because of his previous transgressions and because he consulted a woman who had a familiar spirit (see I Chron. 10:13,14).
10.   The definition of a familiar spirit: A supernatural spirit or demon supposed to attend on or serve a person. A spirit (usually in animal form) that acts as an assistant to a witch or wizard. Plain and simple, Samuel, the real Samuel was never raise to life by the sorcerer 2 Corinthians 11:14.
11.   God has already appointed a time when all the dead will be raised, it’s at the resurrection of the righteous and the resurrection of the wicked (see John 5:28 & 29).
12.   This whole fiasco was nothing more than a séance. God is not in the business of raising the dead for our pleasure.

This particular passage cannot be used to support the concept of consciousness during death. If anything, it proves the contrary. I would be more than happy to comment on the rest of verses that you sent, using strong Biblical proof to explain each one. I’ve read each one and can truly say that they do not support the conscious dead. If you would be so interested I would be more than happy to continue this dialogue.

Owen

P.S. You never did answer the question that I had asked you previously. Here it is again: If we immediately go to Heaven or Hell at death, what would be the point of a resurrection?


Answer
Dear Owen:

The point of the resurrection is to reunite the body with the soul.

Concerning your questions about I Samuel 28:
1. Saul did not circumvent God's authority.
2. Samuel was in the same place that all the dead went to prior to Jesus' death & Resurrection. All the dead were in Sheol (Hebrew)/Hades (Greek).
3. Samuel said, "Why do you disturb me?" (v. 15 RSV). Nothing about sleep or unconsciousness.
4. According to the Bible Saul was speaking to Samuel.
5. Probably.
6. See #2 above. Sheol was always referred to as "downward" (examples, Genesis 37:35; Numbers 16:30, 33; I Samuel 2:6).

Please do not use the Follow Up option. Ask a new question if you like.

Thank You,
Sal