Expert: George A. Card,sfo, M.I - 7/1/2004

Question
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Followup To
Question - Sorry I made this so long. Let me ask two very specific questions. First of all since you know that my son-in-law is fundamental is his understanding of the bible will you help me from a bible perspective.

He believes in full immersion and only baptism for adults. I believe in baby baptism and pouring the water over the head. Scriptures to show why we believe we have the right to change this method used by Jesus.

Secondly, he believes Jesus is referring to himself as the bread of life and having given up his body and blood for us and now we do this to remember him. I believe that he makes himself present body, blood, soul, and divinity in the host. I also believe only a priest can consecrate the bread and wine.

Thank you, Marguerite



This is a discussion I am having. Can you help me clarify? The (you is me and the me is my son-in-law who is from the church of christ and does not understand the catholic thinking on eucharist.

you - So at this time I can do nothing different,
since I believe in the bread of life, I cannot walk
away.

me - My question to you is this: what is your belief
based on?  It is not based on what your bible teaches,
because your bible does not teach what you profess to
be true about communion.  So, then, what do you base
your belief on?  See Matthew 15:9.



you - Then we see Jesus walking on water. v. 26-27:
When the people come looking for him he says you are
not looking for me because you have seen the signs but
because you had all the bread you wanted to eat. Do
not work for food that cannot last, but work for food
that endures to eternal life, the kind of food the Son
of Man is offering you, for on him the Father, God
himself, has set his seal. When asked what they must
do if they are to do the works of God, Jesus tells
them about the true bread in v 28: It is my Father who
gives you the bread from heaven, the true bread; for
the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven
and gives life to the world.

me - If Jesus was talking about His own flesh and
blood here, why didn't He give them some?  There
must've no doubt been some there that wanted some,
right?  And if what you say is true, then what meaneth
this:

Matthew 4:4 - But he answered and said, It is written,
Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word
that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Could it mean that bread for the stomach gives life to
the body, but the bread or word of God gives life unto
the soul?  Who is the "Word of God?"  Wouldn't that,
therefore, mean that Christ is the bread or word of
God (Rev 19:13) that proceedeth out of the mouth of
God to feed the souls of men?  Doesn't this agree
with:

John 6:51 - I am the living bread which came down from
heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live
for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh,
which I will give for the life of the world.

Looks like it is a perfect fit to me.  So the "words"
that come from the mouth of God, therefore is the
bread of life.  God clearly says, "EVERY WORD."  That
means if I want eternal life, then I must obey "EVERY
WORD" that comes from the mouth of God.  Do you agree
with that or do you have a bible reason not to?

you - "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
Jesus answers v. 53: I tell you most solemnly, if you
do not eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his
blood, you will not have life in you. Anyone who does
eat (the word used here was trogein which means to
chew) my flesh and drink my blood has eternal life,
and I shall raise him up on the last day. For my flesh
is real food and my blood is real drink. He who eats
my flesh and drinks my blood lives in me and I live in
him. As I, who am sent by the living Father, myself
draw life from the Father, so whoever eats me will
draw life from me. This is the bread come down from
heaven; not like the bread our ancestors ate; they are
dead, but anyone who eats this bread will live for
ever. After hearing it many of his followers said,
"This is intolerable language. How could anyone accept
it? Jesus was aware that his followers were
complaining about it and said, "Does this upset you? .
. . . . . .(He didn't correct their wrong thinking he
just tells them in v.64 This is why I told you that no
one could come to me unless the Father allows him.
After this many of his disciples left him and stopped
going with him. V 67 Jesus said to the Twelve, "What
about you, do you want to go away too? . . . . .

me - You wrote a lot of stuff.  But Jesus, as was
mentioned in relation to Matthew 4:4, is not talking
about cannibalism, the consumption of flesh and blood
(the bible forbids the consumption of blood - Act
15:20 & Act 15:29).  Instead He is referring to His
doctrine, the word of God (See Matthew 4:4).  If
Christ says in Matthew 16:6, "...beware of the leaven
of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees," do you think
that to mean Jesus is telling His apostles not to eat
them?  Or is He saying something else?  We read -

Mat 16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I
spake [it] not to you concerning bread, that ye should
beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the
Sadducees?

Mat 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade [them]
not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine
of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

SO leaven applied to doctrine, right?  Now watch this:

Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel. It
is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who
believes: for Jew first, and then Greek.

This scripture, by the way, was taken from the online
catholic bible.  And based upon the catholic
scriptures, Romans 1:16 tell us that God's saving
power is in His doctrine.  Now because God teaches us
to confirm one scripture with another, lets provide
more proof.  We read -

James 1:21 - Therefore, put away all filth and evil
excess and humbly welcome the word that has been
planted in you and is able to save your souls.

Based upon the catholic scriptures, James 1:21
confirms and agrees with Romans 1:16.  God tries to
tell us it is all about His doctrine.  If we study
further, we find in the catholic bible -

John 14:23 - Jesus answered and said to him, "Whoever
loves me will keep my word, and my Father will love
him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling
with him.

also

2John1:9 - Anyone who is so "progressive" as not to
remain in the teaching (doctrine) of the Christ does
not have God; whoever remains in the teaching has the
Father and the Son.  

And God takes offense to doctrines other than His.  We
find in the catholic bible -

2John 1:10 in the catholic bible -

If anyone comes to you and does not bring this
doctrine, do not receive him in your house or even
greet him;

What doctrine is the write referring to?  The doctrine
of Christ, which proceeds outta the mouth of God.  And
if this doctrine proceeds outta the mouth of God, then
we must be able to find this doctrine in the book of
God, the word of God, the bible.  

Furthermore, God expresses displeasure with His people
who encourage other doctrines (those that cannot be
found in His book).  We read from the catholic bible -


2John 1:11 - for whoever greets him shares in his evil
works.

So here we see, based on catholic scripture, that the
message I'm trying to convey is likewise in the
catholic bible.  That is, Jesus was not talking about
His own flesh and blood, but rather the "every word
that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."  We have
confirmed that with scripture, too.  But just to be
absolutely sure no stone is left unturned, we read in
the catholic bible -

John 12:48 - 50:  
Whoever rejects me and does not accept my words has
something to judge him: the word that I spoke, it will
condemn him on the last day,

because I did not speak on my own, but the Father who
sent me commanded me what to say and speak.

And I know that his commandment is eternal life. So
what I say, I say as the Father told me."

So again, we see more catholic proof that God says
eternal life is directly connected to the words or
"commandments" of God.

Because God is a repeating God, can you confirm your
suspicion about John 6 with other scriptures?  We've
supplied a great number of associated scriptures that
support, confirm and reveal exactly that obedience to
the word of God = eternal life.  Finally, I would ask
you to review, from the catholic bible, John 4:10 -
15.

Jesus said in verse 10, "If you knew the gift of God
and who is saying to you, 'Give me a drink,' you would
have asked him and he would have given you living
water."  In verse 15, "The woman said to him, "Sir,
give me this water, so that I may not be thirsty or
have to keep coming here to draw water."   What
ultimately occurred?  Jesus preached the word of God.
We read in the catholic bible -

John 4:40 - 43:

When the Samaritans came to him, they invited him to
stay with them; and he stayed there two days.

Many more began to believe in him because of his word,


and they said to the woman, "We no longer believe
because of your word; for we have heard for ourselves,
and we know that this is truly the savior of the
world."

After the two days, he left there for Galilee

The word of God, based even on the catholic bible, is
the bread of life, eternal life.  DO you agree or do
you have a bible reason not to?  Where else can we
find scripture to support your claim?

you - Now you might say in Chapter 10 Jesus says he is
the gate but he is not literally a gate, but it is a
play on words...

me - Okay, now we're talking!  This tells me that you
can discern when Christ is speaking metaphorically and
when He's not.  Why, then, can't you see that with
John 6, especially now that we've proved otherwise
with the catholic bible?

you - But in the bread of life story he is not telling
a parable...

me - I agree.  No parable here, just speaking
metaphorically, is all.  Remember the leaven of the
Pharisees.  No parable there either, just speaking
metaphorically, is all.

you - I have heard a non-Catholic explain that this
means Jesus is given to us by his word and we are to
eat the word. No, I don't think Jesus meant that...

me - Well, now you have catholic scripture to help you
understand that that is exactly what He meant.  See
again Matthew 4:4.  Does man actually eat the words
that come outta the mouth of God?  No, right?  What do
we do with the words that come outta God's mouth?  We
either obey or disobey, right?  Those are the only two
options.  Do you agree or is there a bible reason for
you not to?

Answer -
         Peace

Dear Marguerite,

First I was abit hard to follow your diologue. Your son in law seem to like to mix metaphors. Which is a big error when trying to understand scriptures. I can answer your question verbal better, so please write me again a few days so by then I can write something worth reading on the subject.

         God Bless
        your servant but His first
         george (rav Jerome) Card  

Answer
         Peace

Dear Margurite--
 Below is basic chart i use as a cheat sheet when talking about the Eucharist:
Called the Lord's Supper  1Cor 11:20
Called the Agape (Love-Feast) Jude 12  
Called the Breaking of Bread Acts 2:42  
Promised by Christ Jn 6:27-59  
Instituted by Christ Mt 26:26-29; Mk 14:22; Lk 22:15-20; 1Cor 11:23-25  
Christ actually present in Mt 26:26; Mk 14:22; Lk 22:19; Jn 6:35; 41; 51-58; 1Cor 11:27-29  
Commemoration of Calvary Mt 26:28; Lk 22:19-20; 1Cor 10:16; 11:25-26  
Uniting us to Christ Acts 2:42; Rom 12:5; 1Cor 10:17  
May receive the consecrated species of bread or wine only  Lk 24:30; Jn 6:51; 57-58; Acts 20:7; 1Cor 10:17; 11:27  
Source of divine life Jn 6:27; 33; 50; 51; 58; 1Cor 11:30  
Jesus is Bread of Life Jn 6:35; 41; 48; 51  
This is my body this is my blood  Mt 26:26-27; Mk 14:22;24; Lk 22:19-20; 1 Cor 10:24-25  
Serious consequences of sinning against the body and blood  1 Cor 11:26-30
Long discourse on Eucharist Jn 6:32-58  

There are other verse in the OT and NT but the above might cover some of the basics you might have over looked. Next I suggest you review the CCC as well.

Here some similar table on Baptism:

Foreshadowed in OT  Ezek 36:25; 1Pet 3:20-21
John's baptism preparatory  Mk 1:4; 8; Acts 1:5; 11:16; 19:4  
Administered by disciples Jn 4:2  
In Christ's name Acts 2:38; 8:16; 10:48; 19:5; Rev 14:1; 22:4  
In name of Trinity Mt 28:19  
For all mankind Mt 28:19; Mk 16:15-16; Lk 24:47; Acts 2:38  
Baptized into Christ 1Cor 12:13; Gal 3:27  
Baptized into Christ's death Rom 6:3  
Baptized to new life Rom 6:4; Tit 3:5  
With water and Holy Spirit Jn 3:5; Eph 5:26; Tit 3:5  
Only one baptism Eph 4:5  
Necessity of baptism Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5  
For our redemption 1Jn 5:6  
For sanctified 1Cor 6:11; Eph 5:26  
For justification 1Cor 6:11  
Our assurance of resurrection Rom 6:3-5; 1Cor 15:29  
A free gift of God Tit 3:5  
Forgives sin 1 Peter 3:21; Acts 2:38; 22:16  



Heres a link to a great article on Infant Baptism, from one of my favorite sites:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Infant_Baptism.asp


         God Bless
    your servant but His first
         george(rav Jerome) card