Expert: Ali - 1/8/2010

Question
Ali,

NOTE: When I originally put this in as a follow-up, I got a reply that said it was too long, so I have used the "ask a question" form, but please note it's a follow-up to your previous answer.
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Thanks so much for your reply, and for your follow-up questions. The answers are below, as well as a few additional questions we had regarding your advice.

- As far as you know have there been any changes within your household (including things like brands/scents of laundry detergent, adding/subtracting a family member whether they've got two legs or four, renovations in your home with tradespeople coming in and out frequently, construction in your neighborhood, etc)?

Not that we can think of.

- Do any neighborhood kitties use your property as a litter box where they'd be seen by one or both of your cats?

We do have other cats that visit our yard (and vice versa.) As far as these other cats using our property for a litter box – not that we know of. Note: both Magnus and Circe use our flower beds and other areas of the yard for their litter box more often than they use their actual litter box in the house.

- Have there been any events that may have startled one or both cats and caused them to redirect fear/anxiety based aggression towards each other ?(this happens when they can't interact directly with the source of their fear, frustration, anxiety, etc)

Not that we know of. One theory on why the fights started: 1) Magnus decided to sleep regularly in our bed, 2) Magnus used Circe’s litter box (our fault for not having two litter boxes at first, though both cats were going almost exclusively outdoors), and 3) maybe Circe got just a bit closer to 2 years old – the age of social maturity (?).

- Does Circe have a history of being jealous and/or possessive of food, toys, treats, people, places within your home, etc?

Not within the home (or at least not until Magnus showed up). We have seen Circe being aggressive with other neighborhood cats – going into the other cat’s yard to attack them.

- Who typically started the fights in the beginning?

Circe has always been the aggressor in these fights. Magnus will growl (but never attack) whenever Circe is near.

- Does the other cat now start the fights as well or does she try to avoid them?

Magnus has never started a fight. When Circe is near, Magnus simply stands her ground, growling. Then, Magnus will slowly try to walk away and Circe will run after her to attack.

- What is the body language like when these kids are building up to a scrap?

Magnus no longer tries to “greet” Circe the way she used to.

It pretty much plays out as described above. Magnus appears fearful and crouches down, growling when Circe is near (even when on the other side of a door). Although Circe never growls herself, she appears excited, with a flicking tail and eyes wide open. Magnus tries to slink away, but if she is able, Circe will run after her. Circe also ‘stalks’ Magnus when she can.

- Who typically winds up on top in these fights?

Can’t really see who’s physically “on top,” while they’re fighting, but Circe always wins with Magnus running away.

- Has the way that either cat interacts with you changed since the fights have started or is the posturing and physical end of things confined to each other?

As far as how they interact with us, the cats have not changed noticeably. The posturing/physical behavior is limited to when they around each other.

- What is Circe's personality like normally?

Circe is a little aloof – she has never been a super warm or cuddly kitty. She pretty much acts independently, rarely initiating affection but not resisting it when we initiate it. She will take being petted and being held, and occasionally (but not regularly) slept in our bed. She plays a little, but not for long periods of time. When she was a kitten, she would run up to people passing by the house and let them pet her. She eats a lot, and is a tad overweight. When the weather is good, she likes to spend the majority of the day outdoors.

- Have there been any changes in Circe's personality overall since the fighting has started?

The biggest change we’ve noticed is that (besides being aggressive), she eats more. She was gaining even more weight, so we just recently put her on a weight-management formulation of food. Now that she and Magnus are separated, Circe is constantly looking for signs of Magnus under the two doors that separate them. When she spots Magnus, her tail flicks and she gets wide-eyed.

- What is Magnus's personality like normally?

Very affectionate, friendly and trusting. She initiates affection constantly, and purrs instantly when petted. She sleeps in our bed every night, cuddling close to us. She’ll take as much playtime as you give her and has lots of energy (she’s still pretty much a kitten). She also enjoys spending lots of time outdoors.

- Have there been any changes in Magnus's personality overall since the fighting started?

She is definitely wary of Circe. Even from behind a closed glass-paned door (that the cats can see through), Circe can sometimes scare Magnus away. Magnus adopts a defensive posture when she thinks Circe is near, keeping low to the ground with her ears back.

- You mentioned that the cats will hiss/growl at each other through the door - how far away from each other (approximately) do they have to be to hiss/growl with a door between them?

Usually, they are approximately 2-3 feet apart when Magnus begins to growl from behind a door. They are separated, with two different doors between their spaces. One of the doors is a glass-paned door that can be seen through. The other is a normal door. It is most often through the glass-paned door that Magnus will start to growl – we’re assuming this is because she can actually see Circe as opposed to just smell her.

- Who typically starts the vocal exchanges between these kids while there's a door between them?

Circe never makes a sound, but does physical things like jumping up with her front paws against the door. Also, we have a cloth under one of the doors that we set their food dishes on, and Circe will often pull the whole cloth into her side of the door. Circe will occasionally stick her paw under the door. But is always Magnus who growls.

- Do the physical fights start seemingly out of nowhere or do they seem deliberately planned by either kitty (exhibiting predatory behavior, stalking, crouching, pouncing, catching the other kitty unaware)?

Everything we’ve seen indicates that Circe is the aggressor, and that Magnus would very much prefer to avoid fighting. Circe stalks, stares down, chases and pounces to instigate a fight, and as we stated in our first email, will also – after Magnus runs away during a fight – chase Magnus and attack again to keep the fight going.


Ali, you gave some suggestions in your answer that we also had a few questions about:

1. We understand you would recommend isolating Magnus in a single room in the house and letting Circe roam free in the rest of the house. I fear this will be difficult for Magnus (but we are certainly willing to try it), who is accustomed to having a lot more room, and going outside a time or two during the day (only while Circe is indoors). How long would this take? What is the sign that we would be ready to proceed to the next stage of re-introduction? Would it still be OK for Magnus to go outdoors during this stage?

2. Since our cats go outside one at a time, is it OK for one cat to explore the other cat’s space during times when the other cat is outdoors? This would allow Magnus to become familiar with Circe’s cat tree and get some of her scent on it while Circe is outside. Or would we be better off waiting until later to do this?

Thank you again for your advice, Ali. We are hopeful and eager to try whatever you think may help these two cats make peace with one another, and look forward to hearing more about the Bach remedies also. Best wishes,

Andy


Answer
Andy,

Clearly this situation is quite a serious one, unfortunately while I have extensive experience dealing with such issues I can't be there in your home to guage the reactions of each cat to the different recommendations I make. In this situation since this is quite a severe case of persistant intercat aggression I really do think that it would be best for everyone involved if you considered speaking with an animal behaviorist who specializes in dealing with feline aggression as soon as possible. It's clear to me that you love both cats dearly and intend to provide a lifelong home for each. Your vet may be able to refer you to a good animal behaviorist with extensive experience dealing with intercat aggression. The sooner you are able to make things happen and get a suitable program under way to modify each cat's problem behaviors, the better the prognosis will be for these cats.

You can certainly feel free to check out a great little website that helps pet parents understand what each Bach flower remedy will treat when it comes to pets, the address is: http://www.preciouspets.org/newsletters/articles/bach.htm In addition I would like to strongly recommend that you consider getting in touch with a homeopathic vet or a holistic vet who has received training in and uses homeopathy in his/her practice - the reason is that with homeopathy the goal is to find a single remedy that most closely matches behavioral and other traits of each cat rather than using multiple remedies on each cat in an attempt to get things under control which may not work quite as well. I suspect that you will find that there are remedies out there that are much better suited to dealing with each cat's individual issues - Magnus's anxiety as a result of the aggression and Circe's persistant aggression towards Magnus in spite of a closed door separating them. Ultimately in this situation if these were cats who owned me I would be in touch with my vet who is a holistic vet, our doc has extensive knowledge and training in the field of homeopathy and in spite of all her training she still uses books to refresh her memory and help pet parents understand why she recommends any specific remedies.

While conventional medicine may not see the validity of homeopathy I can attest to its power - during the Menu Foods tainted food crisis in 2007, our eldest cat nearly died from renal failure...Two other vets recommended euthanasia, our veterinarian treated with a combination of conventional treatment (IV fluids and special diet) and homeopathic remedies adapted to MC's individual symptoms on any given day. Many cats and dogs who received prompt conventional treatment failed to survive beyond a few days and the majority who did survive still require ongoing daily nursing care at home. We were honestly told that MC's chances were small both by the 24 hour Emergency vet who diagnosed the renal failure and by my vet's own business partner who practices only conventional medicine. MC requires absolutely no special diet (although we're still working on a complete dietary change to food I know that I can trust 100% since it's made from the best quality organic ingredients in my own kitchen) and she doesn't have any need for supplementary fluids - her kidney function as of earlier this week was 100% normal! As far as I'm concerned a few factors contributed to MC's recovery 1) immediate treatment, we didn't wait around to see if things got better on their own, 2) the use of homeopathy which I believe helped to affect a cure for MC and lastly 3) the love we have for our baby girl as well as the love she has for us.

I truly wish that I could have done more, but with the answers to the questions I posed in an attempt to get a fuller picture of what was happening here with these cats I found that the situation was much more serious than it initially appeared. Although I have extensive experience dealing with problem behaviors in cats I've also had the luxury of being able to see the results of each change that I make in an attempt to modify those problem behaviors which is, unfortunately in this case just not possible. I believe that you'd best be served by someone local who could come in and make recommendations who would have the opportunity to make immediate changes if one cat or the other's behavior required it. I wish you luck with Circe and Magnus and I hope that you find the best answer for all concerned. If you have any further cat related questions I'd be more than happy to help you out to the best of my ability.