Expert: Richard Aberdeen - 3/25/2011

Question
QUESTION: Answer:    This is what you said:  One is born again, by the Holy Spirit, but one has to receive the Spirit, and work with the leading of the Spirit to fulfill the destiny of becoming like the parent, in character, word, deed, emotion, wisdom, love, etc...!

Mr Aberdeen, one is to look to our example in these matters and that is Jesus Himself.... He was conceived by the Spirit. Mary had only to believe the message! Jesus received the Holy Spirit, upon departing the waters of repentance. Even though He needed not repentance, but did so, as an example to usward..!
Belief is like being pregnant, one either is, or their not! No works! BUT the faith required to receive what God has supplied, isn't even from ourselves, or our own volition, it is a gift of God, as the scripture relates. Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. We are called to believe the Word, even if we don't understand it, and God bears witness to its truth to us, in us, and through us.

I don't agree with that, because that places the burden on us to be saved, which is what I consistently hear in sermons by Christian ministers, as they teach that we have to clean up our act before God will fill us with his Spirit.

And I agree that this is one of the big reasons believers don't get beyond carnality. He has given us Himself, as He did Jesus. It is to be Him working, not only in us, but through us, as His word says..Phillipians 2:  12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Yet, the New Testament has this to say about how faith works.

1) God is love and faith works by love, thus God must act and only then can we believe.

2) Faith involves action (Hebrews and James, among others), thus to believe in Jesus does not mean to just mentally believe.

3) For by grace we are saved and that not of ourselves, it is a free gift, not of works lest anyone should boast; thus again, God must forgive us and only then can we believe.

Grace means, 'the everpresent power of God to cause one to be, what He has called  them to be, and to do, what He has called them to do ! 2 Corinthians 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Even repentance is of Him..2 Corinthians 7:9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
 10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Christians invariably have this backwards, teaching that we must first believe in order to be saved and must first clean up our act and believe before God will fill us with his Spirit, when in fact the Bible teaches that beyond calling on the name of Jesus, God must act before we can believe (i.e., faith works by love) and even if we do call on the name of Jesus, it is because God first acted, because no one can come to God unless God's Spirit draws them.

To believe is our part, and confession of that belief is what God acts upon. He witnessses with our spirit to its validity, and life.
Mark 5:36 As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he saith unto the ruler of the synagogue, Be not afraid, only believe.
John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
 16 ¶ For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
 18 ¶ He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
I found after coming to a living relationship with the One I had believed in as a child, as to why it took near 40 years for it to come to this day in Sept to come into this wonderful fellowship with Him? So I asked, " Why did it take so long? I would have loved this fellowship a long time ago?" He answered by pointing out 2 Peter 4:3 For the time already past of your life may be sufficent to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when you walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:
 4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:
My Saviour knew exactly where I was, what I was, and what I was doing, and He was there all the time, waiting patiently for the time, to make a decision of invitation, as He knocked at my door!


Thus, our faith grows the more that we experience the grace, mercy, love and peace of God in our lives, "for by grace we are saved".  And as John taught, we can know we belong to God because of his Spirit working in us; we must be aware of God's love before we can believe.  We cannot save ourselves by our own ability to believe or to mold ourselves into God's image, "for by grace we are saved" and as Paul said, I can will do to good but find in my flesh no ability to do good.  

True enough! He draws us to where we can Hear the Word of God! The Spirit reveals the love in and through the Word and we respond! 1 Corinthians1:  18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
 26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
 27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
And Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

I love the parable of the sower and the seed. For the seed to find the good soil and flourish! The heart has to have been made ready to receive the Word. Gods part! Just as in the womb of a woman, the seed must be present for conception to take place. And God sets the time for us to hear the Word and conception to take place when we believe. As you have pointed out. too many are compelled to be saved, without the preparation of God, and the seed falls on rocky soil, thin soil, or is choked and never comes to fruition.
Too many goats in High places, as He said.

I have several ideas of how to answer that simple question and they are all very simple answers that anybody can relate to, but I'm not going to give them because I'm still trying to understand which one of the several are correct or most accurate.

I believe otherwise, that the answer is lost to human history, as I have never met anyone who can satisfactorily answer the most basic of questions, which is "how do I believe in Jesus?".  If an answer doesn't work in the real world of human interaction, then it is not correct, of that I am most certain.

One can believe a light switch will turn on a light, till the cows come home, but an action of faith that reaches out and flips the switch is rewarded.

Richard Aberdeen

www.FreedomTracks.com

Sincereley In Him
Bar.

ANSWER: This is what I think is correct, although I don't claim this is correct or entirely correct, because I am still working it out to see how correct it may or may not be.  If something doesn't work for me, then I assume it is not correct.  

I lose patience with many Christians who pretend to "know" what is true, when in fact Paul and the other authors of the Bible freely admitted they didn't know all of what is true but rather, like ALL sinners, they only saw "in part".  

Only Jesus knows what is true, which is why we need to follow him, rather than pretending to believe in the Bible, which is not the purpose or goal of the Bible according to the Bible itself and, which such blind faith belief has no value.  True faith is based on evidence of things not seen, not on blind belief.  True faith "works by love"; thus God acts and, then we believe, not the other way around.  The "work of God", according to Jesus, is to "believe in him who he sent" and as Jesus taught elsewhere, the more we believe in Jesus, the more love we will have for other people; "herein is my father honored, when you have love, one for another".  And as Jesus also taught, the sum purpose of "the law and the prophets", is that we treat other people as we ourselves, wish to be treated.  

That is the entire idea of what the Bible calls the "good news"; belief in the Bible, Christianity or so-called "doctrines of the church" are not at all required by God, "for at the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow".  And, "all those who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved".  There are no other requirements and, inventing anything else is very much against what Paul wrote, is "the simplicity of Messiah".  

Christianity, other religions and other philosophies, education systems and self-help programs make it too hard on the sinners and common people.  We neither want nor do we need any of their bullshit (translated "dung" to be nice in KJV) and, such bullshit very much gets in the way of us being free, "for by grace we are saved".  

This below is how to believe in Jesus as far as I understand; note how simple it is compared to what Christianity, self-help systems and what the rest of the above promote:

FORGIVENESS: HOW TO BELIEVE IN JESUS

1) Ask Jesus to forgive you for being a sinner

2) See if God helps you believe in Jesus, even if you take it easy.

That is all anyone needs to know to believe in Jesus, as far as I understand and, it is as best as what is called the "good news" in the Bible, can be concisely and simply explained in human language, again, as far as I understand.  

It is of course extremely valuable to read the Bible and to also study history and the sciences, so we can "rightly divide the word of truth", and correctly separate what is false from what is true, but our faith belongs in Jesus; not in Christianity, not in Paul, not in John and, not in the Bible, which such so-called "faith" has no value towards saving us from our sins.  None of us need a guru, priest or preacher or theology student or religious study guide book to teach us what is true; God is fully capable of teaching us himself what is true, as I am learning as he tries to help me in my daily life experience.  As Jesus said, if we listen to him, we will know the truth and the truth will make us free.

And again, I am not claiming the above is correct or entirely correct but rather, I think it is what is correct, as far as I understand; for like every other sinner, I only see "in part".



---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Mr Aberdeen. Pauls letters to the christians was inundated with Grow UP!Put the childish things away. Don't stay little children! Your mention of *only in part*, misses the rest of the context..
1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
 11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

When the *perfect* come, *perfect* being *maturity*!{{{ When I became a man!}}} The word *then* meaning, when I gain maturity in the knowledge of Christ, I will see face to face, and know oneself as fully as you are known!

Paul would never brag on saying he was perfect, but he implies a maturity, as in ....
Philippians 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
 13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
 15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
 16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.

And our teacher of all truth...
1John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
And also 1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
 9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

(1) The Holy Spirit. (2) The water (his word).(3) The blood (the separated life of flesh)..

Quote."True faith is based on evidence of things not seen, not on blind belief." end Quote.  

Mr Aberdeen.... that scripture is more correctly written as... "Faith is the evidence............of things not seen! Faith is the assurance..............of things hoped for!  Faith has substance of itself! I believe the Word which says.."Greater is He who is in me, than he that is in the world!" BUT Faith in that Word in which I believe, calls me to walk in it! Jesus believed the word of the OT  that said He would be crucified, but He would be raised from the dead..! He walked in faith of that promise to the cross, knowing inwardly the joy of the promise! Just as Abraham on his way with Isaac to crucify him, said to his fellow servants to wait on the trail, for he and his son to return..! Abraham walked in faith of a promise he believed God meant. As we!

The question I ask christians is, " IF you died with Christ, then who are you?"

Mr Aberdeen, Jesus didn't just die for our sins, He took the sinner, together with Him to that cross. So, as Paul said, " It is no longer I, who live, but Christ, who lives in me!"  I don't think too many christians even realize this fact..

With sincerety, and respect.
Bar..

ANSWER: I'm not going to argue with you about what you believe, I was just telling you what I think is true.  Your responses are far too complicated I think for the average common person and child to grasp.  

I John also very clearly say that if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us and if we confess our sins (present tense), he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins (present tense).

You can't just quote part of John and leave out the other part, which clearly is talking to believers and is clearly saying that we are still sinners, which is what Paul also says severl times, including he says that Jesus came to save sinners of who he is chief and Paul says, in him lives no good thing, thus clearly confessing that he is still a sinner.

I don't believe anybody can get very far with God if they don't want God to forgive them, "for by grace we are saved".  As long as we have any darkness and breath in our beings, we need Jesus to forgive us, "for by grace we are saved".  To not want God to forgive us is to not want God to help us, "for by grace we are saved".  As Jesus taught, after we have been made clean by first asking Jesus to forgive us, we need our feet washed on an ongoing basis, which according to my understanding, means we need to be forgiven for our sins and for what we don't understand as we live on, until we pass on to be with God.

You are not likely going to change my mind regarding this, because I know I am a sinner and I know I fall far short of loving my neighbor as myself.  Thus as Paul taught, I know that I have not attained and I need to be made better.

There is no other way to grow in the grace, mercy, love and peace of God, other than through forgiveness, "for by grace we are saved".



---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Mr Aberdeen, I'm not wanting to argue, at all. I am just trying to point out there is more to this, than some of the things you've stated.. And one being that we are still sinners after being saved.
The fact is the sin nature, the old man, was crucified with Christ, buried with Christ and resurrected in newness of life.... We have become partakers of the new nature, the Divine nature. We are to learn not  only to walk in and do righteousness,but in the new nature we are to realize we are now new creatures in Christ Jesus, and righteousness in now not only our focus, but we are to grow in righteousness, whereby sin in no more master.

We were born sinners, because of the sin nature passed on from adam. Which is why the need of the new birth. Born of a diffent parent, from the last adam, with a new nature, and character.

We sinned, because of our old nature. For even the good that we did, is off the wrong tree! The tree of the knowledge of good and evil, remember?

That sinner born of the line of adam, is that old man that Christ dealt with at the cross. Romans 6:  1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

I would prefer to take it one point at a time, if you would.. And this needs be addressed for we can never, or should never build on a weak foundation.

Sincerely Bar.

Answer
You are correct that there is more to it.  Paul went on to say, "so with the flesh I serve the law of sin".  A sinner is someone who can't obey either God's law or their own conscience all of the time, which is why Jesus died.  That is why Paul said, "with the flesh I serve the rule of sin".  We don't have any other option, because we can't obey God all of the time.  If we could obey God, then Jesus would not have died in the first place.  In God's grace, we are no longer required to obey God in order to receive his help, "for by grace we are saved" and, "we are not under the law, but under grace".  

What Paul emphasizes is what mattered to him, just like what Jesus emphasized is what mattered to Jesus.  There is a big difference between what someone says once or twice and, what someone repeatedly emphasizes.  Jesus repreatedly emphasized the importance of loving our neighbor as ourself and of especially helping the sick, poor and least among us, while Paul repeatedly emphasizes the importance of forgiveness.  This is because without forgiveness, we don't receive help from God and thus, we don't have any power to love our neighbor as ourself.