About Dr. Jay Forrest Expertise I can answer any question dealing with mysticism, such as questions concerning the awakening call, the purgative way, the illuminative way, the unitive way, spiritual experiences, spiritual direction, spiritual disciplines, prayer, ecstasy, the rule of life, internal monasticism, asceticism, mystical theology, devotional helps, chanting, meditation, contemplation, hesychasm, kabbalah, sufi, tao, zen, theosophy, and more.
Experience
Dr. Jay Forrest is an ardent student of mysticism in all the major religions of the world (Taoism, Buddhism, Christianity, Judaism, Islam). Jay was a Pentecostal/Charismatic minister for over 20 years, pastoring churches in Wisconsin, Missouri, Tennessee, Arizona, and New Mexico. He is the author over over 150 articles and poems and several books. He holds a doctorate in ministry from Trinity Institute.
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Why do you think it is that only a handful of people in any given age realizes the importance of going deeply within?
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Hi Ed,
I wish I knew. It is a mystery to me. You would think that many would want to know God first hand. But then I remember Israel's response at Mt Sinai:
"Now all the people witnessed the thunderings, the lightning flashes, the sound of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled and stood afar off. 19 Then they said to Moses, You speak with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
20 And Moses said to the people, Do not fear; for God has come to test you, and that His fear may be before you, so that you may not sin. 21 So the people stood afar off, but Moses drew near the thick darkness where God was" (Exodus 20:18-21).
And so the majority still stands "afar off." It is the lonely pilgrim that travels into the thick darkness of unknowing. Here it seems that fear keeps people from approaching God. But fear of what? Do they fear God is His justice? That may be part of it.
If I may venture a guess, I would say the fear that keeps people afar off is the fear of seeing themselves as they really are. To have the layers of self-deceit striped away and to be completely naked before God is a horrifying experience. I remember my own undoing, where God made me face myself as I really am. "O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?"
If is the fear of letting go of the false self that hinders us. We cling to our identity as we where, the olf self. The cloud of unknowing talks about approaching God without our safe ideas, concepts, and images. We must come near to a God that is not safe. Drawing near to God is not safe. It will cost you everything you have, and everything you are. The purgative way is the striping off of the old man - dispositions, habits, passions, and ideas. It is safe to say that the God we image is not God, but a poor shadow of the Real thing.
For those who have experience the Real thing, we desire more. We are always finding, yet always seeking. The ocean of God is infinite, and so our journey is endless. Oh, but the joy is unspeakable.
May God bless your journey with the peace that passes understand. May our lives draw others to seek what is the most important thing in this life - knowing God.
Could it be that Christ was really trying to teach us to go within? (Gnosticism)and unenlightened followers, who couldn't understand the concept, instead created a religion of worship? Could things have gone terribly off track like that? Maybe the second coming of Christ (Christ meaning enlightened one?) is not an individual, but a new consciousness of many enlightened people?
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Hi Ed,
I think that that is the very answer that Gnosticism was trying to convey. The answer lies with - in the knowledge of your inner divinity.
Traditional Christianity would not be comfortable with the termonology, but ultimately the answer is to know oneself. The Eastern Orthodox church talk a lot about deification, though not in the same way as the Gnostics.
Thank you for you insight. May we be truly enlightened with the consciousness of the Christ of God.
Jay
Hello Jay,
Thank you for your insightful answers. I was formerly a Thai Therevada Buddhist monk, and you, a Christian, and yet we are communicating beautifully. Going within seems to be a foreign concept to many Christians, it looks like to me. Do you think that if the importance of what we are talking about, knowing oneself, could be communicated to the faithful, then perhaps the historical conflicts resulting from hardened beliefs (which are happening as we speak; Muslim – Christian - Hindu - Buddhist) could be ended, by people simply going within? Going within seems to transcend belief, while at the same time does not disparage beliefs. It (going within, meditation, contemplative prayer) could be the universal common thread that connects all of our humanness, rather than seperate us as doctrinism seems to do.
Best......e
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Hi Ed,
Yes, I think we would all be better off if we focused on the mystical elements within our respective religions. Far too many Christians are concerned with proving that they are right, rather than living a life of love and peace. As a Christian I don't feel it is my place to judge a person in another religion. As Paul said, "For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside?" (1 Corinthians 5:12).
If all religious people where faithful to their faith in the inner man, there would be less intolerance. The key, as you know, is to become enlightened. As the Tevigga Sutta says concerning an enlightened one, "Putting away all judgment of others, he abstains from slander.... he is a peacemaker, a lover of peace, impassioned for peace, a speaker of words that make for peace. Putting away all bitter thoughts, he abstains from harsh language.... He speaks only when it is appropraite for him to speak, words that are profitable, well restained, well defined, full of wisdom." (A Buddhist Bible, p. 70).
It may seem contradictory, but the more firmly you believe in your faith the less defensive you become. I am have complete certitude in my faith in Jesus Christ, therefore I do not need to attack someone elses faith to boost mine. I don't need to be right, because I know I am where I need to be in my journey with God. And i am also enlighten enough to know that I don't know where others need to be.
My calling is to help Christian become confident in their faith so that they live it, instead of just talking about it. The Dali Lama once said that Christianity is a wonderful religion of words. I confess that we are all too fond of substituting words for actions.
Can we transcend beliefs? I don't believe we can. We need a map to explore the inner realms of the heart. There are real dangers that need to be guarded against. That is why we need a spiritual guide.
William James wrote a book on Religious Experiences where he argues that there is a common thred of mysticism that runs through all major religions. He may be right.
I am not sure the unity of religions is the answer. I don't believe that one can faithfully follow Christ and mix it with other beliefs. For example, Christians believe in resurrection, while Buddhists believe in reincarnation. These beliefs are mutually exclusive.
No, I believe that the answer is tolerance and understanding. And even further, I believe that the answer is to be faithful to the deeper aspects of our faiths. Islam has the Sufi, the Judaism has the Kabbalists, the Buddhists have the Bodhisattva, and the Christian has its mystics. All are on the path to enlightenment; all seek to leave the ego centered life and become centered in love.
My desire is to call my fellow Christian to this deeper life. We have enough problem within our own faith, without attacking other's faith. We are divided a thousand times over, each fighting against the other. We need to get our house together and get the log out of our own eye first.
I ask that you forgive us Christians for our ignorance and short sightedness. Thanks again for sharing.
Your servant in Christ,
Jay Forrest
Hello my friend. Thank you so much for your insight into this subject of contemplative prayer and meditation and why so few people see the value of it. Your approach is very open-minded and your opinion on one more thing would be helpful.
The Roman Catholic taught me, many years ago, that good works and faith would get one to heaven, but after meditating for over 25 years (a meager attempt at self-knowledge) another side has been seen, and I wondered if you would comment on it.
It became apparent, after solitary meditation in the remote forests of northeast Thailand for some time, and after getting through various “dark nights” and preliminary meditation experiences – (where I thought that I was surely enlightened, but quickly found out that I was not with the help of very experienced monks) I found that the “I” was the problem; the “doer” was the problem. .
I was a still a human “doing” instead of a human “being,”
According to senior monks, my many attachments and strong opinions were only symptoms of the fundamental problem, which was a strong belief in self. I still saw my “self” accomplishing things. This ego-consciousness was related to my greed, hatred and ignorance of things as they are. And the basic ignorance was the belief in and the clinging to and identification with the “I” thought, which was nothing more than an illusive mental phenomena. After many years of first establishing a concentrated, calm mind, and then using that calm (and courage which developed and was necessary), I looked into the inner workings of the ego-consciousness, the detailed areas of the mind, This was a tremendous freedom, to realize this unsubstantial self, much different from the guilt and fear that I had felt as a Catholic, and the concern that an isolated, concrete “I,” separated from God, had only one shot at going to heaven! Two past life experiences that graphically arose in meditation and which were confirmed by a teacher, convinced me that this was not my first, (or last) rodeo! (I always wondered about everybody going to the same Catholic heaven! And later found indications in the bible that reincarnation Pre-existing soul) was a common Christian belief.
When I looked into it, I found that reincarnation was well documented as a common belief taught by Jesus. Orthodox Judaism has also taught reincarnation for thousands of years, as did early Christians until about 500 AD, when it was thrown out by the Roman Church, and to this day, the Christian Bible, the Christian Gnostic gospels, the Torah, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Hebrew Bible and the Kabbalah all support reincarnation or the pre-existence of souls. Buddhists use the term rebirth, while Christians use the term reincarnation; the difference being two different re embodiment factors; karma in one case and a transient soul in the other.
Pre-existence of souls was a belief of Christians. There are parts of the bible that confirm that fact.
Matthew 16:13-14: Jesus said, “Who do men say that I am?" Some said he was John the Baptist, who had died some time before. Others said he was Jeremiah or Elijah, again from the past.
Matthew 17:13: In this scripture, Jesus says that John the Baptist was Elijah, who had died long before John the Baptist was born.
Matt. 5:5: Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
Rev. 13:10: If any one slays with the sword, with the sword must he be slain.
Matt. 26:52: All who take the sword will perish by the sword.
Exod. 21:24-25: Life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
The above four scriptures would make no sense outside the parameters of reincarnation. We all know of people who have gone through life unpunished for their evil deeds. How else would they “perish by the sword” other than if they reincarnate into another body? How will the meek inherit the earth in their present lifetime?
And then there is Psalm 51:5: Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
How would one explain being sinful at birth? Original sin? Hardly. Those sins had to have been committed in a past lifetime, unless a fetus is a heck of a lot smarter than we think! There is no understanding of Christ's deep teachings without rebirth and reincarnation. They seem to be key, along with going within:
Jesus Christ was a Gnostic, and Edgar Casey, a devout Christian and the American quintessential psychic of the twentieth century, renowned for his healing abilities and prophetic statements, claimed that Gnosticism is the highest form of Christianity. The other surprising thing that Mr. Casey, again a devout Christian, said, when asked in trance about a patient's horoscope, was that the patient had been a monk in his past life, thus confirming early Christian beliefs in soul transference, or reincarnation as some translate it.
Gnosticism clearly explains why one must go within to experience Whatever-God-Is, and claims that this ‘going within' is the true path to salvation, the path that, perhaps, Jesus tried to teach. Eastern Mysticism, the Jewish Kabbalah and Early Christianity (Gnosticism) all have a common denominator, which is similar methods to discover what God is — a practice that leads directly within. Everything is of God, and therefore we can find Whatever-God-Is everywhere in the universe, but since our bodies and minds are closest to us, this is what we use to look directly within to find Whatever-God-Is.
Thomas wrote the first gospel, and as far as the teachings of Jesus are concerned, many consider these Gospels the most trustworthy. Here are some examples:
Jesus said, "Whoever knows everything but lacks within, lacks everything."
This scripture addresses the misconception that the intellect can make progress in spiritual matters. It can't. One must quiet the intellect for truth to make itself known, for truth is felt in the heart rather than in the brain.
Jesus said, "Know what is within your sight, and what is hidden from you will become clear to you. For there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed."
“Within your sight” translates as “Very close” in this scripture. The hidden is always very close; it is directly inside of us to be exposed by stilling the mind. Remaining in the moment and not allowing the mind to regress into the past or jump forward to the future will reveal it all.
Words and descriptions vary, but fundamentally, Jesus, perhaps, was telling us that the search within is where we find truth — the “Word” (not the written word, but that part of God that is within us to be discovered) — is where we will be guaranteed our salvation. Unfortunately, except for courageous, enlightened instruction from Christians like St. John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila who taught meditation, the faithful have not been granted the respect of clear teachings regarding how to actually go within. Conversely, twenty-five hundred years ago the Buddha laid out precise instructions on going within and passed these instructions down through the ages, intact, where they were thoroughly tested. Meditation in its purest form is simply an emptiness of “self,” insuring the practitioner insight, wisdom, and subsequent enlightenment, regardless of his or her religion.
So it seems that the more desire and aversion we have, the more alive we seem to feel, and the more concrete the “I”: thought becomes; that which separates us from God and is so easily taken over by the “devil,” prodding us to go outwards toward the world instead of continually going inward toward our Source. So, I asked a monk when it would be time to teach, which is going outward to the world as Christ and the Buddha did, and his answer was when I could teach from compassion and not pride. He also reminded me of the other prerequisites that red-flag an unenlightened mind, not yet ready to teach at deeper levels: Belief in a permanent personality, belief in religious rituals, doubt that going within offers complete freedom, sense desires including ideals and beliefs, anger and hatred of those who don't agree, desire to go to a heaven of form after death or a heaven of the formless after death, self righteousness where one thinks that they know for sure and others are wrong, restlessness in that one always has to be doing and accomplishing, and finally ignorance about the basis and construction of an ego-consciousness, that which keeps us in a dualistic notion and far from God, which only becomes a concept and image.
You mentioned that we can't transcend beliefs and that we need a map to go inward. J. Krishnamurti, who is considered an enlightened being by many in India, the UK and here in the US, disagrees. He says that maps lead to known conclusions, and that total freedom can only come by the way of truth, which is a pathless land. He claims that thought breeds beliefs, and it is thought that separates us. In meditation and contemplative prayer, thought is abandoned, as are beliefs, so that God can speak to us directly (dark nights of the soul). Since I clearly saw that it is thought that constructs the ego-consciousness, I conclude that all thought breeds sin, even kind compassionate thought, and only in the absence of thought, God appears. And when God appears, our actions become selfless, that is without ambition. I have found this to be true for myself, although I could not say that God appeared in the way one may imagine a God to be! So, in a way. I agree with Krishnamurti; that strong beliefs cause conflict and even war, creating an “us” against “them” mentality.
So, I ask my original question in a different way: How can we lessen suffering in human beings? It still exists and seems to be getting worse; life can be very stressful. How can we convince others to experience what you and I have perhaps experienced, which we must admit had nothing to do with beliefs, the moment it happened, perhaps afterward. How can we explain, in a persuasive capacity, that worldly desires and pleasures, easily acquired, only offer a surface happiness that quickly disappoints, whereas the deeper happiness, which can only be attained by not attaching to the surface happiness, and by practicing contemplative prayer and meditation, is the only true way to work through God rather than working in lockstep with the devil's deceptions?
Look forward to your reply. Best..........e
Answer Hi Ed,
You said, "I found that the 'I' was the problem; the 'doer' was the problem." This is indeed correct. From my point of view I see it this way. In the New Testament Jesus condemned the Pharisees (Matthew 23). Why? Did they not do the right things? They most certainly did, but they did them for the wrong reason - to be seen of men.
The key here is that there are only two choices, we can put God first or our selves first. We serve ourselves or we serve God. As Jesus said, you can not serve two masters. This is why Jesus taught that your treasure (what you value, your priorities) are where your heart (your ultimate intent) is.
Not to your next question, the question of reinarnation. Here we leave the interfaith discussion and enter into the Christian faith and worldview.
As you are probably aware of, there are as many interpretations of the Bible as there are denominations. John Wesley and John Calvin we both men where great scholars in their own right, and each were passionately in love with God. But they came to two different beliefs about the security of the believer's salvation. Both have a list of Scriptures to support their beliefs. They both can't be right, we cannot both be eternally secure and not eternally secure. Who is right?
My point is that anyone can prove anything from the Bible. That is why I have spent a considerable amount of my time reseaching the methodology of Scriptural interpretation. Until we are argreed upon a common method of approach, we cannot begin to look at the evidence.
My methodology is to imploy a threefold interpreative model in the interpretation of Scriture. 1) We must faithfully and accurately apply the principles of hermenutics. For example, you said, "Matthew 17:13: In this scripture, Jesus says that John the Baptist was Elijah, who had died long before John the Baptist was born." This is not quite true, it says "Jesus answered and said to them, 'Indeed, Elijah is coming first[b] and will restore all things. But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands.' Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist." In context (one of the rules of interpretation) Jesus is saying that John the Baptist was the Elijah that was to come. In other words, John fulfilled the prophecy about the Elijah that was to come.
And if we compare this Scripture with others (another rule of hermenutics) we learn that John did not come in the person of Elijah, but that he came "in the spirit and power of Elijah" (Luke 1:17). In other words, John came in the spiritual anointing of Elijah. John the Baptist himself denied that he was Elijah, they asked John, "Are you Elijah?" And he said, "I am not." (John 1:21).
2) The second part of the threefold interpreative model is patristic witness. By this I mean that the early church fathers are accurate interpreters of Scripure. There are volumes of writings from the first three centuries of Christianity, writings that are penned by disciples of the apostles. The early church fathers are better interpreters of Scripture because: 1) They spoke and thought in the same language as the New Testament, 2) They lived in and experience the same culture as the apostles, 3) They were taught the traditions of the apostles by the apostles or their disciples.
So what do the early church fathers teach? Irenaeus (180 A.D.) writes, "We may subvert [the Gnostics'] doctrine as to transmigration from body to body by this fact: that souls remember nothing whatever of the events which took place in their [supposed] previous states of existence." Origen (245 A.D.) states that "the doctrine of transmigration [is] foreign to the church of God. It is not handed down by the apostles, nor is it set forth in the Scriptures anywhere." I could produce many more.
The simple fact is that reincarnation is not a doctrine drawn from Scripture, but rather a doctrine read into Scripture. For the Bible says that "it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment" (Hebrews 9:27). In the Christian worldview, we die once. And after we die we we go to "the" judgment, not "a" judgment.
The facts so far, based upon our method of interpretation, is that the Gnostics taught reincarnation, the orthodox Christians did not. Furthermore, no major denomination teaches reincarnation and never has.
Since I know your background, I know that you believe in reincarnation and therefore approach the Bible with a bias. Therefore one finds what one wants to find. It is like the old saying, "Ones sees what one wants to see."
When we dialog between worldviews we must seek understabding, but when we speak within a worldview we must seek accuracy to the founders teachings. If we fail to be faithful to the teachings of the founders, we inavertanly create a new and different worldview. This is exactly what the Gnostics did.
When you speak within the context of Buddhism, you are the expert, not me. I do not pretend to be an authority on Buddhist teaching. I am not the teacher, but the student. But in Christianity, I am an authority, having spend to decades in reasearch, study, and experience. And this leads me to my third principle in interpreting Scripture, the pronciple of illumination. You have to have become a true Christian, heart and soul and mind, before you can accurately interpret Scripture. You don't go to a Christian to lead the inner meaning of lord Buddha. Likewise, a Buddhist is not qualified to interpret the Bible. The book does not belong to him, it belongs to the church of God. Only the church of God has the right to interpret it.
And so I conclude with saying that beliefs do matter, for they are what forms our thinking and guides our actions. I will only experience what I believe I can experience. The answer, I believe, is in teaching people the inner depths of their faith.
I will not contend with other religions and other worldviews, but I will "contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 3). Christianity can not be merged with any other religions or religious beliefs without it becoming something other than what it historally is and was.
