Christianity--Church History/Early Church Fathers


QUESTION: Dr Rose let me first say I am very Very happy to find you on this site. Your education and back ground I believe will help me so much in my question. I truly mean that and I thank you so much for any help you can give me at all. Mr. Rose did any of the early church fathers ante nicene, quote John 7:53-811, 1John 5:7 or Mark 16:9-20 before 300AD. Scholars today love the alexandrian text type because its the oldest we have. But of course it omitts these verses. Scholars today said these verses were not part of the original writtings. If they were not then that is fine, but I want to know did early church fathers quote the verses above before 300AD. Mr. Rose if you could shed some light on this that would be great. Its just sad when people read the wycliffe bible, the tyndale, bishops, geneva, and KJV all those years and now they are saying the Alexandrian text and Nestle Aland greek new testament holds the best.

ANSWER: Thank you for such a great question!
First, allow me to say that along with many scholars and historians any documents from Egypt are suspect.  The church was so far removed from the main body and numerous enclaves of scribal additions and comments discovered on many documents cast much doubt about spurious materials and alternate manuscripts. The Received Text is still the standard to which all others are compared.  Sure there have been found numerous manuscripts or portions thereof that differ from the RT but that was no new discovery.  The earliest translations, including the Vulgate and the Aramaic texts, agreed with the RT except where Jerome took certain editing privileges.  So, the texts were used and quoted before 300AD - Bede was one of many who did so.  Eusebius also paraphrased much of John and Mark; the very same text that is in the KJV or RT.  One other observation:  Wescott and Hort did not even believe the scriptures were God's word!  They are not alone. Many who purport to have new information that contradicts or places the RT in question are usually just wanting to get their "15 minutes of fame".  That is a real fear of many researchers, scholars (so called), historians, and others.  In the field of religion the scholarship is so broad, deep, and almost unending that it is easy to get ignored or overlooked in the academic realm.  Some folks just thrive on controversy, and many don't even have to prove their claims for them to be widely publicized - especially those that only serve to cast doubt into the mind of the faithful and convolute true scholarship and faith.  Don't take criticisms of the RT too seriously. Dr D A Waite can go into greater detail and offers many books on this topic.  
If you would like to know more or have other questions please ask.  It is truly an honor and pleasure to discuss Christian History and the Bible.  Thank you so much.

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QUESTION: ok so from your answer i gathered the byzantine text, majority text and textus receptus is still the standard. The early church fathers did quote 1John 5:7, mark 16:9-20 and John 7:53-811. Also you said when a early church father would quote bible scriptures, it always lined up with byzantine text or majority text.  Well this is truly a great step in showing how the textus receptus has just as much say as westcott and hort or nestle aland. Thank you so much for your answer and information.
Its amazing how far scholars will go to try and make alexandrian text the main one. Like I said people used the wycliffe bible, bishops, tyndale, geneva, KJV for years and years. I understand these bibles all use a byzantine text or textus receptus tradition. Now everybody is using the ESV and NASB. Thats fine but I don't want to see God's word omitted.

Dearest in Christ,
most folks think that the newer work from "modern" scholarship is superior to that of the first translators.  Nothing could be farther from the truth. The scholars of that period were eminently more qualified for many reason.  Their study of languages was broader and painfully detailed. They kind and type of words used in the original manuscripts (Koine Greek, Ancient Hebrew, and Aramaic) were much more familiar.  The language has changed so much in sixteen centuries.  These early translators were unanimously lauded as "the experts" in the translation of one or all of these languages.  There were unchallenged as the most gifted, most qualified, and the very best that could be found.  The translators possessed knowledge that resulted from many years of concentrated study; knowledge that bordered on a walking library archive. Their education was just superior to almost any scholar of today. It was not a hobby, special interest, or some part time obsession. That is what and who they were.  They did nothing else except become masters of languages as perpetual students never content with what they had learned.  
Yes, there were several Bibles that were based on the RT and they were utilized for centuries. Many of the first colonists to the United States (Colonies) brought one or several of these Bibles with them. Although the most quoted KJV is the 1764 edition, it is still the 1611 version based on the RT.  There have been five editions of the KJV Bible. The NKJV is not one of them. The RKJV is not one of them.  The MKJV is not one of them.  Now there were two KJV Bibles printed that differed slightly but both were KJV Bibles.  One was the Cambridge edition and the other the Oxford edition.  One was used extensively and widely accepted while the other saw little use and was not readily accepted.  Some folks have one or the other editions and just don't know it.  Those are THE two editions used by the Christians in the world today.  E-mail me if you want to know more...  

Christianity--Church History

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Dr Wesley B Ley Rose


I can answer questions on: Biblical Studies, Biblical History, Church History, Early Christian History, Sociopolitical Background in the Early Church, Biblical Archeology, Biblical Theology, and some Greek


I did my field work in Israel, Egypt, Turkey, and Jordan while on active duty in the US Air Force during the period between 1989 to 2000. I served as a Chaplain in five theaters of war and spanning well over a decade. This afforded me the opportunity to view digs, museums and Universities where i was blessed by the staff and many graduate students. I also viewed many original manuscripts, me Archeologists, Anthropologists, and benefited from the direct teachings of Rabbi's and many learned individuals. UI have personally written almost three hundred commentaries, Essays, Treatise, and Theses. I founded my own School on Early Christian History and recently began the process to offer courses in Biblical Archeology. I teach at the local community colleges, churches, and community centers. I have authored seven books and still continue research and study. I recently received my Doctorate in Early Christian History through Scripture Institute.

Biblical Archeology Society, Paralyzed veterans of America, Habitat for Humanity, Christians with Disabilities, and many more Academic organization not to mention alumnus to many Universities throughout the world including the University of Cairo, University of Tel Aviv, The Hebrew University of Jerusalem, King Fadd University, plus so many in the US and the pacific rim. many I just too a few courses, and some are honorary alumni status. Schools such as Cambridge, MIT, Stanford, University of Maryland, Appalachian State University, University of New Mexico, Empires State University, Clemson University, for Christian and Jewish Studies, and almost a dozen others. I have been attending college since 1977.

Publications;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;, etc.

I currently Hold two Doctorates in Theology and Divinity. Additionally i hold two separate master's in Biblical History-Biblical Studies, and Early Christian Studies. I'm also enrolled in salt lake Bible College as a Master's seeking a Masters in Christianity through the First 500Yyears. I have three Associate degrees in Electronic Engineering, Teaching, and Biblical Archeology. i was a Communications Engineer and worked in that field along with my Chaplianship; I received a field ordination in Kuwait by the US ARMY, yes the US Army. It's a very long story. Essentially I served in both branches for over five years; officially on loan to the Army when needed.

Awards and Honors
Aside from Military Educational Awards and others, I have been entered into the National Archives, American Honor Society, Who's Who, and National Award of Academic Achievement, Distinguished Graduate Air Force Academy, Magna Cum in all of my Master's Degrees.

Past/Present Clients
I have been a ghost writer for several ministers/evangelists; Trinity International Christian Consultants, Christian Book Reviews, etc, etc

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