Christianity--Church History/Holy Spirit
Mr. Ron I am so sorry but I got you mixed up with someone else. I also asked somone else a short time ago about baptismal regeneration and I was trying to find that person again. I seen were you were educated on the church fathers and I clicked on you thinking you were someone else. I asked the question about the laying on of hands and baptismal regeneration yesterday. I think is is strange that today's denominations like methodist, baptist, church of God, church of Christ believe what they believe, but early ante nicene church fathers and apostolic church fathers believed something different. For example I attend a church of Christ but I believe one has to be converted and regenerated and a true believer before they are baptized. Only after they are true believers the baptism means something. But now I do believe baptism is very important because Jesus was not have gave that commandment if it was not. But the church fathers go way beyond that, they believe in baptismal regeneration. and also I think cyrian believed that only by laying on of hands could would be sealed with the holy spirit. Denominations today teach you receive it when you believe. Whats your thoughts and how do you believe?
Not a problem contacting me. Been extremely busy the past couple of days (Pastoring). Sorry for the delay!
Consider Paul's experience and attitude towards the rite of baptism;
1Co 1:14-17 "I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, so that no one would say you were baptized in my name. Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other. For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void."
If Paul was sent to save through baptism, he probably would not have stated the above, would he?
Consider MESSIAH'S words regarding baptism;
Mar 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned."
Notice "He who has believed (first) and has been baptized shall be saved..." But also notice "he who has disbelieved (not he who has not been baptized) shall be condemned..."
I do not place much stock in men referred to as the "church fathers" for two reasons;
1. They are men. The Scriptures say that all men are liars.
2. They rejected much of the Theology of The Scriptures in favor of changes to what YHWH has stated and established. Today's traditions are the latter fruit of their poor theological perspective. Denominations (division) are the result of allowing men to interpret (instead of obey) what YHWH has stated. This is prophesied as the problem in Israel. And it remains to be the problem today...
The Prophets were sent to call HIS people back to HIS Teaching (Torah). Consider;
Eze 5:5 "Thus says the Lord GOD, 'This is Jerusalem; I have set her at the center of the nations, with lands around her. Eze 5:6 'But she has rebelled against My ordinances more wickedly than the nations and against My statutes more than the lands which surround her; for they have rejected My ordinances and have not walked in My statutes.'
MESSIAH encountered it;
Mat 15:3 And He answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?"
The Apostle John sums it up this way;
1Jn 2:3 "By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 1Jn 2:4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 1Jn 2:5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 1Jn 2:6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked."
But MESSIAH again puts the emphasis on whats what and who will be "in" and who will be "outside" by stating this in the last book of HIS Scriptures, in the LAST chapter stating;
Rev 22:14 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."
So, yes baptism is commanded as the outward witness of the inward witness taking place that a person has truly come to know HIM as one of HIS children. Receiving HIS SPIRIT takes on many forms. Consider;
Act 2:1-4 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."
No hands being laid upon them here!
Act 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
Josh, please consider these verses in their context. Men in the past have been used to deceive people just as they do today. The un-Scriptural practices of today's professing Christendom are a witness to what Paul prophesied. The traditions, the celebrations, SUNday worship, HOLI-days, SUNday school, Youth group ministries, the catholic (universal) communion, the general rejection of the Old Testament as relevant today, etc. are all contrivances of man, not found in HIS WORD!
May you be a seeker, a hearer and a seer as you study HIS WORD! May HIS blessings as the result be evident to you and to those around you as you walk in HIS TRUTH!