Expert: Carl Fuglein - 10/8/2008

Question
QUESTION: Carl,
Will you please get your data straight on the Mormon church before responding to someone who knows nothing about it?  You very poorly represent true Mormon beliefs and practices.  Your response to that poor questioner represented no accurate insight or investigation at all.  For example, tithing is 10%, not 15%.  This is a simple gospel principle that even a young 5 or 6 yr old primary child could have told you if you had been willing to go to the horses mouth.  Attend a meeting, read the Book of Mormon, talk with a member, do SOMETHING that gives you straight information please before you act like an "expert".  thanks.


ANSWER: Will you please get your data straight on the Mormon church before responding to someone who knows nothing about it?  You very poorly represent true Mormon beliefs and practices.  Your response to that poor questioner represented no accurate insight or investigation at all.  For example, tithing is 10%, not 15%.  This is a simple gospel principle that even a young 5 or 6 yr old primary child could have told you if you had been willing to go to the horses mouth.  Attend a meeting, read the Book of Mormon, talk with a member, do SOMETHING that gives you straight information please before you act like an "expert".  thanks.

I know that tithing is 10% and that that is the Biblical standard.  I was told BY A MORMON that 15% is what he gave and what he was expected to give.  

I have read the book of Mormon.  I have had extensive conversations with Mormons, have read a fair amount of literature about Mormons, their practices, and their culture from Mormon, non-Mormon, and ex-Mormon websites and literature and in no way do I want to mis-represent the truth.

If the only objection that you have to what I’ve said about the Mormon church is the 15% giving, then I think I’ve done a pretty good job of getting my facts straight.

Obviously, you must be Mormon.  Do you give 10% of all that you earn to the church?  Do you have a temple card?  Did they ask you for a W-2 form to show that you were giving that much?  I’d be very curious to know.

Thanks.  From now on, I’ll back off that 15% - the only reason I’ve been saying that is because I was told that by a Mormon.

Blessings,
Carl


---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Carl,
I'm sorry for being a little irritated when I responded last time.  You are
obviously a nice guy and didn't mean any harm by your answer.  The truth is
that no practicing Mormon would have ever told you they are required to give
15%.  I can't remember the exact points of your answer now, but the whole
feel of it was entirely wrong.   Mormons are as Christian a faith as there is
Carl.  We teach that all mankind can be saved through, and only through, the
atonement of Christ.  We teach our children to follow the Savior's example
and to heed His plea to "be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is
in heaven is perfect" (Matthew 5:48) to the best of our ability.  We can all be
made clean or "perfect" as we repent and forsake our sins (which is possible
because of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ) and that is a life long quest that will
continue on into the next life.  This whole business about becoming Gods is
simply that we believe that our Father in Heaven wants us to become like He
is.  And that through Christ, little by little, step by step, we work toward that
goal of being more kind, more loving, more understanding, less selfish, less
lazy, more service oriented, more educated, etc. as we try to become like our
Heavenly Father.  We are not a cult, in fact far from it.  Anyway you try to
define a cult, if you will attend our church just one Sunday, you will see that
we are far from it.  People stay away from it  because they don't understand it.  
We believe in the Bible - it is a witness of Christ as told by prophets who lived
where He did when He was alive.  We believe in the Book of Mormon - it is a
witness of Christ as told by prophets who lived during the same time period
on the American continents.  That's all.  The temple is a place where we do
sacred work for the living and the dead.  It is a loving, peaceful place - no
gimics, no craziness.  Everyone who goes there is "temple worthy", meaning
they are doing exactly what I just talked about.  They are doing their best to
follow the commandments and continually repent and be better people.  Yes,
I do have a temple recommend and I do pay 10% of my income to the Lord (to
His church).  Nobody has ever requested or ever will request a W-2 form.   
You know and the Lord knows if you are following the commandment fully or
not.  There is simply a question in the temple recommend interview of
whether or not you pay a full tithe.  A yes or no answer is all that is given.  
That's all.  What about the Mormon church makes it dangerous?  You advise
to stay away from it, because it is a cult.  Why?  One last thing...My wife and I
pay our tithing, not because we feel forced to as some "ex-mormons"
probably attest to, but because we can't afford not to.  The Lord has
promised to provide for those who do and we have seen His hand in our lives
time and time again blessing us in a temporal way, so we can put food on the
table and take care of our needs.  It is a blessing to be able to pay 10%.  And
yes, I really feel that way.  Anyway, sorry for the long response here.  I just
get frustrated when I see such responses where it is obvious that that person
hasn't mingled with those of that faith enough to know the doctrine.  Last
week I attended an Eagle Scout Court of Honor for two "Mormon" boys who
were being awarded Scouting's highest honor.  We are good, normal people
who uphold high morals and teach our children to be happy, enjoy life, and
work hard in doing so.  It's late and I should end.  Best of luck in your advise
and counselling.  Forgive me please for being so upset with you.  
Sincerely,
A Mormon

Answer
Hi-

Thanks for your response, and you certainly are forgiven for being irritated with me.

We are obviously going to have to agree to disagree, but probably only on one point - whether or not Mormonism is a cult.  I believe it is, and I base my answer on my intimate knowledge of a Mormon bishop - the way he acts, the way he believes, and his hypocritical approach to life.  I also base it on this website:  www.exmormon.org and the hundreds of stories I've read there, especially about the ostracization of members who attempted to leave and had to sue to remove their names from organizational lists.  There is a similar website for ex-Christians: http://exchristian.net/

I don't mean to say that Mormons are bad people, because I really don't believe that.  But I DO believe that the Mormon church exerts too much control over its members, it uses coercion and guilt to gain members, and is not completely open about its finances.  My church has no specific rules against drinking caffeine, about wearing spiritual underwear, is 100% open about how its money is spent, does not prohibit any members from attending a temple, does not prohibit non-members from attending wedding ceremonies, and does not even prohibit non-members from receiving communion.

As for the tithing thing, I tithe, too, but only because it's the right thing to do.  You said you tithe "because we can't afford not to," implying to me that you feel that God is NOT going to take care of you if you DON'T tithe.  And I don't feel that way at all.  God's love is unconditional and doesn't require me to tithe, to not drink caffeine, to do this or that, or to NOT do this or that.  God's love for us has nothing to do with that, but only to do with the fact that He loves us first.

I would never tell you you're going to hell as some other Christians would, because I don't believe that.  I just believe that the Mormon church has an abnormal influence on its members and is not totally forthcoming to the world about what it believes.

Another big problem I have is with the book of Mormon.  Ancient texts from the old and new testaments of the Bible have been found as late as 1947 in the Dead Sea Scrolls.  The Book of Mormon is not even two hundred years old, yet no record of it exists.  Some "facts" contained in the book cannot be proved by outside scientific sources.  (see http://www.catholic.com/library/problems_with_the_book_of_mormon.asp)

Also, some tough questions for you to answer are here:
http://www.bible.ca/mor-questions.htm

You and I can argue for years, and I don't think we'll ever agree.  Because of your letter, I will change my thoughts about tithing in the Mormon church, but there is still far too much evidence about the Mormon church that I just cannot agree with, the temple ceremonies being taken from the Masons, the closed financial statements, not allowing outsiders in the temple, not telling folks everything about the church at first knowledge, etc, etc, etc.  

I DO believe that there are good Mormon people.  There are also good atheists and Jews and Muslims.  One of my best friends is an atheist and we talk about theology all the time.  But even so, I don't believe that the Mormon organization and leadership as a whole is good, sorry.

You are certainly welcome to disagree with me, and you're certainly welcome to join the All Experts team as an expert.  Hopefully, anyone with questions about the Mormon church will contact both of us, and then make their own decision.

Blessings,

carl