Expert: Carl Fuglein - 12/6/2007

Question
QUESTION: i read an answer you gave another girl and in it you said that you though the mormon church was a cult and that she should "run, not walk, run" away from that religion. i was wondering what your basis was on that? have you ever been to one of their meetings? have you heard their teachings? what would lead you to believe that religion is a cult? do you feel that way about other religions or is it just the Mormon church? if you could clear some things up for me that would be very much appreciated. thank you.

ANSWER: Hi Jaycie,

I have studied the Mormon church in great detail, and I believe it to be a cult, as do most mainline Christian religions.  When someone hears "cult", they think of "scary cult" like the Moonies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonies) or Jim Jones (http://www.religioustolerance.org/dc_jones.htm).  This type of "scary" cult sometimes enslaves their members, takes away all their money and belongings, and asks them for absolute obedience, even unto committing suicide.

The Mormon church is NOT a scary cult, but it is still a cult according to most definitions of cult.  Many Mormons, in fact MOST Mormons are decent, moral, upstanding citizens, but they are decidedly NOT Christian, despite what they say.  More about that later.

There are many different definitions of cults.  This is one that I particularly like:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In her book "Cults - the battle for God", Shirley Harrison has a list of the characteristics of a potential destructive cult:

*  A powerful leader who claims divinity or a special mission entrusted to him/her from above;

*  Revealed scriptures or doctrine;

*  Deceptive recruitment;

*  Totalitarianism and alienation of members from their families and/or friends;

*  The use of indoctrination, by sophisticated mind-control techniques, based on the concept that once you can make a person behave the way you want, then you can make him/her believe what you want;

*  Slave labour - that is, the use of members on fundraising or missionary activities for little or no pay to line the leader's pockets;

*  Misuse of funds and the accumulation of wealth for personal or political purposes at the expense of members;

*  Exclusivity - "we are right and everyone else is wrong".
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Looking at the Mormon Church (the one based in Salt Lake City), here's how they measure up against that list:

*Leader - Their President is considered to be a prophet of God and he makes unilateral and statements that are to be kept and honored by all.

*  Revealed scriptures or doctrine;   The Mormons, in addition to the Old and New Testament have several other books, e.g., The Book of Mormon, The Pearl of Great PRice, and their principles book which are all considered to be divine.

*  Deceptive recruitment;  They send people out on missions and they take you through a series of steps and don't tell you all that they believe.  In fact, many missionaries at lower levels may not even know all the beliefs.  You are allowed to go to church meetings, but you are NOT allowed to go to the temple until you are proved to be what is called a True Blue Mormon

*  Totalitarianism and alienation of members from their families and/or friends;  - The Mormon church will excommunicate and actually stop talking and ostracize members who leave the church.  Parents are pressured to disinherit their children if they leave the church.

*  The use of indoctrination, by sophisticated mind-control techniques, based on the concept that once you can make a person behave the way you want, then you can make him/her believe what you want;   They're not so bad on this one, but church leaders do exhibit tendencies to put a lot of pressure on people to achieve their will.

*  Slave labour - that is, the use of members on fundraising or missionary activities for little or no pay to line the leader's pockets; Not exactly slave labor, but missionaries are expected to pay for their own 2 year mission trips despite the fact that they church is extremely wealthy.  Before you get a "temple card" that admits you to the temple, you have to prove how much money you've given - I'm not sure, but I believe they expect 15% - most Christian churches say only 10%, but never ask for any "proof" before you can go to worship services at a temple.

*  Misuse of funds and the accumulation of wealth for personal or political purposes at the expense of members;   the Mormon church is extremely wealthy and there have been expose's of church leaders misusing funds.

*  Exclusivity - "we are right and everyone else is wrong".   This is a biggie for me - the Mormon church, despite saying that they are "Christian", do not accept ANY other Christian denominations.

Theologically, there are many differences between the Mormon church and mainline denominations.  There is a great discussion of those differences here:
http://www.godandscience.org/cults/mormdiff.html

There is another discussion of cults and how to recognize them here:
http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/CBNTeachingSheets/FAQ_cult.aspx

There is an interesting conversation giving all kinds of answers to the question of whether or not the Mormon church is a cult here: http://www.saintsalive.com/newsletters/may-june-00-nl/is_the_mormon_church_a_cul

One of the best ways to get an idea about a church is from former members - there are links to former members here:

http://www.caic.org.au/zexmems.htm

And finally, the best resource I've ever found written almost entirely by former Mormons is found at exmormon.org.  If you don't go to any other links, please at least read this one:  http://exmormon.org/  and read this page:  http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In response to your other questions:  

Have I been to a meeting?
-------------------------
No, I have not.  But I have had several meetings with missionaries and have had many conversations with Mormons.  I've also had several conversations with people thinking about becoming Mormons who HAVE been to meetings. I worked for a Mormon for about 8 years - he was the worst boss I've ever had.

Have I heard their teachings?
-----------------------------  
Absolutely - I've studied them, looked at their books and ceremonies.  Again, I strongly recommend you read this:  http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm

do I feel that way about other religions, or is it just the Mormon church?
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I believe that ANY church, Christian or otherwise, that says they are the only TRUE church, is wrong.  Call them a cult or anything else that you'd like, but I just don't like them.  The three churches that claim to be Christian that I believe (as do many others) are cults are the Mormons, Jehovah's Witness, and Christian Scientist.  The people that belong to those churches are not necessarily bad people, but I believe they are mislead.  

There are some less "cult like" churches that lean towards being the only "right" church including the Roman Catholic church, Southern Baptists, and some independent charismatic churches.  I don't have a real problem with them as most of their beliefs mirror mine, but I don't think they're the ONLY church or the RIGHT church.  I don't think we can make that distinction - I think only God can, and so far, He hasn't told me.

As for non-Christian churches, I have a lot of respect for Judaism, Hinduism, and Islam, but if given the opportunity, I would like to talk to them about Jesus.

Jaycie, I hope this clears up some of your questions.  Please take the time to rate my answer, and please feel free to write again if you have more questions.

hugs,

carl





---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: okay thanks for your answer but if i could i would like to clear some things up for you on your "cult characteristics".

leader- our rules are guidelines that are used for our happiness and well being.

revealed scriptures and doctrine- the Pearl of Great Price is a book that is about the beginning of any religion. the Book of Mormon is another book teaching us how to be christlike. one more is the D&C. that is a book of revelations that were given to Joseph Smith to make our church better.

Deceptive Recruitment- our missionaries are sent out not knowing everything. our prophet doesn't know everything so how can you expect a 19 year old boy to know everything? they are sent out on faith and we believe that if they are righteous they will learn what they need to teach. the temple is kind of your reward for being perfect. we believe in repentance so we can go to the temple. we need to be perfect to go in the Lord's house.

alienation- no one is ever ignored or pushed away. people are excommunicated but that is there own doing.
Indoctrine/mind-control- if there is preesue, which i haven't felt, it is for our own good.

slave labour- the money the church has is from tithing(10% of everything we earn we give back to the church). that is used for the people who need help financially. missionaries are asked to pay for their missions to show faith and obedience.

you said that you had not yet had an answer for what church is right. this may sound like i fit into the "typical mormon" category but if you really want to know then you should pray about it. it may take longer than it takes some people but you will get an answer if you really mean it.

since you asked me to read something, i feel like i have the right to ask you to do some thing. along with praying, there comes action. so, you should read the Book of Mormon. read it open-minded and before you read pray to be given an answer. it won't come on the first day but it will come. you don't have to but i thought that i should just ask. (this is missionary work to the lowest power.)

thank you for clearing things up for me. it helped a lot. now i have a different perspective so i can make myself better. thanks again.

ANSWER: Jaycie-

I HAVE read a lot of the Book of Mormon, and I'm sorry, but I just can't buy it - there are historical and anthropoligical errors in it.  How come there are hundreds of original manuscripts of the Bible 2000 years old, and no one seems to be able to find the gold plates that are less than 200 years old?  If they were that important, I would think someone would have protected them.

I, too, give 10% of my money to God's work, but no one asks me for a W-2.  

Have you been to the temple yet?  I'm not excluded from anything in my church.  There are no secrets in my church - no secret handshakes, no secret ceremonies, no secret underwear.  We're completely open.

If the Mormon church is so big on family, how come missionaries cannot phone home?

You said the temple is your "reward" for being perfect.  First of all, I don't think any of us are perfect except Jesus, nor will we become perfect until we get to heaven, and then only because Jesus died for our sins.  And I thought heaven was our reward.

As for the excommunication - if a church is truly loving, why would you have to throw anyone out?  In my denomination, we don't even have excommunication. We welcome all people.  I'm sure I'd be welcome at your church - would you be free to come visit mine without a lot of questions from your leaders?

How come there have never been any female leaders in the Mormon church?  Aren't women equal to men?

What happens if you question your leaders?  We believe that you should be able to be a free thinker, and not have all these rules and regulations - Jesus wasn't about rules and regulations - he was about love and forgiveness.

Jaycie- did you read ANY of the links that I sent to you?  I encourage you to do so.  Here's another one - a story about a woman who grew up Mormon, married a Mormon (over prostetations of her in-laws), and left the church.  Hers is just one of hundreds like it. http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon146.htm

Here are some other, more technical questions about Mormonism that I don't understand:

1.    Why does the Mormon Church still teach that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God after he made a false prophecy about a temple being built in Missouri in his generation (Doctrine and Covenants 84:1-5)?

2.   Since the time when Brigham Young taught that both the moon and the sun were inhabited by people, has the Mormon Church ever found scientific evidence of that to be true (Journal of Discourses, 1870, v.13, p.271)?   

3.   Why did Brigham Young teach that Adam is “our Father and our God” when both the Bible and the Book of Mormon (Mormon 9:12) say that Adam is a creation of God (Journal of Discourses, Apr. 9, 1852, vol.1, p.50)?

4.   If Brigham Young was a true prophet, how come one of your later prophets overturned his declaration which stated that the black man could never hold the priesthood in the LDS Church until after the resurrection of all other races (Journal of Discourses, Dec. 12, 1854, 2:142-143)?

5.   Since the Bible’s test to determine whether someone is a true prophet of God is 100% accuracy in all his prophecies (Deuteronomy 18:20-22), has the LDS Church ever reconsidered its teaching that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were true prophets?

6.   Since the current LDS prophets sometimes contradict the former ones, how do you decide which one is correct?

7.   Can you show me in the Bible the LDS teaching that we must all stand before Joseph Smith on the Day of Judgment?

8.   Can you show me archeological and historical proof from non-Mormon sources that prove that the peoples and places named in the Book of Mormon are true? (There are many non-Christian sources that confirm the Old and New Testaments)

9.  Why did Joseph Smith condone polygamy as an ordinance from God (Doctrine and Covenants 132) when the Book of Mormon had already condemned the practice (Jacob 1:15, 2:24)?

10.  Why were the words “white and delightsome” in 2 Nephi 30:6 changed to “pure and delightsome” right on the heels of the Civil Rights campaign for blacks?

11.  If God is an exalted man with a body of flesh and bones, why does Alma 18:26-28 and John 4:24 say that God is a spirit?

12.  Why did God encourage Abraham & Sarah to lie in Abraham 2:24? Isn’t lying a sin according to the 10 commandments? Why did God tell Abraham and Sarah to lie when 2 Nephi 9:34 condemns liars to hell?

13.  Why does the Book of Mormon state that Jesus was born in Jerusalem (Alma 7:10) when history and the Bible state that he was born outside of Jerusalem, in Bethlehem?

14.  If the Book of Mormon is the most correct of any book on earth, as Joseph Smith said, why does it contain over 4000 changes from the original 1830 edition?

15.  If the Book of Mormon contains the “fulness of the everlasting gospel”, why does the LDS Church need additional works?

16.  If the Book of Mormon contains the “fulness of the everlasting gospel”, why doesn’t it say anything about so many important teachings such as eternal progression, celestial marriage, the Word of Wisdom, the plurality of Gods, the pre-existence of man, our mother in heaven, baptism for the dead, etc?

17.  Why do you baptize for the dead when both Mosiah 3:25 and the Bible state that there is no chance of salvation after death?

18.  Since the word grace means a free gift that can’t be earned, why does the Book of Mormon state “for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Nephi 25:23)?


Jaycie - think for yourself - don't let the church leaders think for you.  And thanks for the nice ratings.

blessings,
carl

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: okay that's a lot of things that i haven't thought about. i'll try to sort of answer them but like i said before, no one has all the answers right now.
1- are you talking about Far West? if that's it then there was supposed to be a temple but the mobs made it so it was no longer safe for the mormons to be there. what kind of god would ask that his people die to build something that would most likely be burned down in a few years? it is said many times that the resting place for the saints would be in a certain place but it was changed many times until they finally came to Utah.
2- i don't fully understand that question so i'm not going to answer that. i don't want to give you the wrong answer.
3- he said that because adam was the first person on earth. he is considered the father of everything because at some point we are all his relatives.
4- everything has a time to come forth and it wasn't time for that when president young was the prophet.
5- there are many in the church's history who have said that they were fallen prophets. martin harris, who helped translate the Book of Mormon said joseph had fallen in kirtland. joseph smith's wife emma said that brigham had no right to be the prophet because she believed it was her fault her husband died. with the faithful members, there hasn't been any reconsideration of those two men as prophets.
6- they are both considered correct but one is bringing forth more revelations that need to be taught then. if the Lord has something changed then there will be a new revelation that the older prophet didn't not recieve.
7- can you tell me where that is said in the Book of Mormon? the bible didn't even know that joseph smith would live. i've heard that joseph smith would be there but i don't know about him judging us.
8- the americas are real places. that's were a lot of stuff happens in the Book of Mormon. Hill Comorah is where the plates were found and that's a hill in america that really exists. i've stood on it. i can't think of any other places right now but if you want me to look some up i will.
9- this is a big one for everyone. i could give you a full history but i'll sum it up. joseph smith got a revelation that said that having more than one wife was okay. it was only for those who it was asked off. not every man had to have another wife. there were a few people who were asked to have more than one wife, the prophet included, but it wasn't for sexual pleasures. it was so these women would have someone to take care of them. they were widowed, single, old, or divorced and someone needed to help them. that's the only reason there was polygomy.
10- i'm not sure on this one either. i'll have to look into it more.
11- it doesn't literally mean a spirit. we are referred to as spirits in the church but we have bodies also. it just mean that He's above us. kind of like calling the head of a club the "big dog". he's not actually a dog.
12- again i'm not sure.
13- i'm not sure why it says that. i crossed it with Luke 2:4 and that sort of explains it but i don't know.
14- he probably meant that it is the most correct book in its doctrine. yes there are mistakes but as far as joseph smith knew it was the most correct book. he didn't mean it was perfect.
15- the Book of Mormon kind of ties everything together. we need the other things because, like you, we have questions. that book was written a long time ago and yes things in it help us today, but there are still a lot of things that are not in it that we need.
16- it doesn't have everything that we believe in it. i'm not sure on this one either but i think it's because these things were given in revelations after the book was translated. those teaching may have been lost with the 162 that Martin Harris lost. but, again, i'm not sure.
17- no salvation for ourselves. that is a big thing for us mormons. we can do work in the temples that people who that have died could not do themselves. we can't do work once we're dead but people can do it for us.
18- not sure again. don't hold that against me please:).

for your question about where the plates are,(i know this sounds crazy)they were taken up with the angel Moroni so they could not be stollen but people who wanted money. they are very sacred things and the Lord did not want them destroyed.

actually i have been to the temple. i've gone to do baptisms for the dead. we're going again in a couple of days. i can't go everywhere but i will be able to go more place when i get older. the rooms are used for certain ordinances that i am not ready for like sealings or endowments but i can go in them later.

missionaries can call home on holidays and on their birthdays. it helps keep the homesickness away and it also keeps them focused on their work.

okay on the whole reward thing, heaven is our reward and no one is perfect but we can repent and do our best to not do it again. the temple is just kind of a way to say that you are doing your best. it feels good to be there so i think of it was a reward.

for excommuntication, they aren't thrown out. they are asked to not take of the ordinances for a time and then to come back,they have to be rebaptized. you would be welcome and i have gone to different churches with my family. there wouldn't be any question.

there aren't any female leaders because we believe that you need to have the priesthood keys and women can't have the priesthood.

if we have a question we are encouraged to search for an answer and no matter what go with what teh spirit tells us to do. if we question a leader we can talk to them or our bishop about it while we are looking for an answer.

yes i did read some of you links and i plan on reading all of them soon.

Answer
Jaycie,

Wow, I'm impressed, you've done your studying and provided good answers for most of the questions.

You've obviously been trained well, you're honest about what you don't know, and you believe what you say.

The numbered questions I asked you were not my own - they came from this site:  http://www.towertotruth.net/Mormon/witnessing/50_questions.htm

I asked them for a couple reasons - first because the problems that they bring up are troublesome to me and difficult to believe, and secondly, to see how much you really knew.

For a long time, I questioned my faith as a Christian, but as I've grown older (and although you haven't said how old you were, I'm presuming I'm at least old enough to be your father, and probably old enough to be your grandfather), I've studied more and more about the Bible (and other religions, like yours), and have to come to the realization that, at least for me, Christianity is the only answer that makes sense.  There are many questions like those 50 that people have about the Bible that I can't answer, but like you and the Book of Mormon and other writings, I just take them on faith.

My biggest hangups theologically with the Mormon church are these issues:

----I don't believe that we can become gods or like gods.
Mormonism teaches: Since we could not progress further in heaven, our Heavenly Father called a Grand Council to present his plan for our progression (see Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 348, 349, 365). We learned that if we followed his plan, we would become like him. We would have a resurrected body; we would have all power in heaven and on earth; we would become heavenly parents and have spirit children just as he does (see D&C 132:19-20).19

The Bible says:  "You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, In order that you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me. (Isaiah 43:10)

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. (1 Corinthians 8:6)

----I don't believe that God would make women unequal to men and allow them to come to heaven only through their husbands, i.e., not allowed the priesthood.

-----I believe that Jesus was, is, and forever will be one with God, (Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, yes and forever. (Hebrews 13:8) ) unlike the Mormons who believe he was the first of many children (Mormon Gospel Principles teaches that Jesus Christ is merely the first of billions of created spirit children - "literally our elder brother" and the brother of Satan)

----  I don't believe in secrecy.  If being Mormon and going to the temple is that important for everyone (and it apparently is to you as you baptize the dead), why don't you want to share all that with everyone you know right now?  You start doing things in secret, and people are naturally going to be skeptical.  That's why I'm so open about my faith - I believe that Jesus died for my sins, that that is the ONLY way I'm getting to heaven, and I want everyone to know it.  That's why I'm so open with you, too.

----And the biggest issue I have with Mormon teachings is that you have to work to get to heaven.

It is only because Jesus died on the cross for our sins - that's the only way to get to heaven - accept and believe that we cannot earn our way there - only Jesus can.

Ephesians 2:8  For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9  not as a result of works, that no one should boast.
10  For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Out of all the numbered questions I asked you, # 18 is THE most important.  The Book of Mormon got it partially right - by grace we are saved - but it's got nothing to do with "all we can do."  We can't do it, period.



Jaycie-  Keep on studying.  And keep on reading.  And keep on asking questions.  Only one of us is right, or we may both be wrong, but in knowledge, there is truth.  I believe what the Bible teaches, and I don't believe that which I have seen in Mormon teachings.  I pray that you keep an open mind.


hugs,
carl