Expert: Carl Fuglein - 11/29/2006

Question
first off you have been a big help. everything you said makes sense and you have answered everything i have asked you. although some if doesnt direct apply to me about the stds and stuff because we are both virgins. i mean were both virgins i didnt really make that clear but we have had sex, not for 6 months but we have.  and i definitly know that there is a deep emotional experience in sex. and i enjoy that nearly as much as the physical part if not more. and that marriage is about much more than sex. she is my best friend through and through and i love her with all my heart and would marry her even if we could never have sex again. thats not what our relationship is about at all. however as you said the truth is sex is fun and we are trying to decide if its a proper addition to our relationship for the second time. ive just been having a hard time changing the way i feel about it because honestly its almost as if the benefits out way the consequences, with the exception of bearing a child. and i know its a sin and all but its just hard for me to say that i dont want to continue our sexual relations for the simple reason that it is a sin. after all i committ sins every day and i enjoy the grace of my savior. i know that sounds horrible but its honestly how i feel and im struggling with that. as i side bar i saw that you said you have been in the youth ministry for several years. i am in the worship band and youth leadership of my youth group and we have been trying to grow in size. we lost a lot of seniors last year and have gone from about 30 to about 8. so if you had any ideas or things that you have seen work in the past in regard to expanding the size of a youth ministry please include that.
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well im actually only 17 at the moment i turn 18 in a couple of months. but your right thats not really the only reason we arent getting married right now. as much as i would like to. we have decided to at least what until we are both well into college and at least slightly more financially independent. and your right now certainly would not be the most oportune time to have a kid, although i do believe we could care for it, it would definitly make our lives harder. thank you for all your help, of all the people i have talked to about this you have definitly been the most helpful and given the most weight to what i had to say. well those are the answers to your questions so please add anything else you have to say about the matter
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In recent weeks i have been doing a lot of research on the subject and i know that the bible clearly says that fornication is wrong and a sin. However I feel (perhaps wrongly) that my situation is a bit different. also, WHAT CONSTITUES MARRIAGE IN A CHRISTIAN SENSE?

I have been with my girlfriend for almost two years now, she is 20 and I am 18.  We are both solid in our Christian faith and have been struggling with this issue for the last few months.  We have promised ourselves to each other and have a deep undying love which, like all love,I believe comes from God.  We will get married in a few years after we are both out of college.  So basically my question is, Is it ok for us to have sex?  It seems to me that the promise and the love from the lord is what constitutes marriage in a Christian sense, not the legalities. After all, If a man and a woman are married but do not truly love each other, is sex no longer a sin?

I realize that you probably get a love of kids saying they are in "love" and "plan to get married" and are probably only in lust. i know in my heart that i am in love and i would do anything for her, i would die for her without a second of thought and i know that she feels the same, i wish i could express that our love is true and pure.
-----Answer-----
Bobby-

If you're asking permission to have sex, the answer is not really up to me - it's up to you and your girlfriend.  My OPINION is that it is NOT okay until you are legally married - I understand that you may feel promised to her, but until you fulfill man's law as well as God's law, then it is still a sin.  Jesus said to render unto Caesar what was Caeser's.  That's an admonition to follow the laws of man as well as God's laws.

At 20, and 18, you are legal to marry in most states without your parents permission.  If you truly feel that you are going to get married in the future, then why don't you go ahead and get married?  You see, what it sounds like is that you are trying to justify having sex - marriage is so much more than just sex.  If you don't think that you're old enough to actually get married, then you're not old enough emotionally and spiritually to have sex, either.  Surely you are PHYSICALLY capable of having sex, but sex is not just a physical act - the emotions that go along with it are very powerful.

Yes, I get a lot of kids saying they're in love, but they are generally a lot younger than you when they say that.  I'm not going to say that you're not - you're certainly old enough to know in your heart what you want.  I knew at 20 that I was going to marry my wife (although she was my age, not 2 years younger), we married at 22, had a child at 23 and have been married 37 years.  I'll be the first one to tell you that we had our child too soon, but I will not deign to say you're not in love - you may very well be.

Answer these questions, and get back to me, and I'll probably have more to say:

Why are you waiting until you're out of college to get married?

Do you understand that not all means of birth control work 100% (except for abstinence)?

Are you willing to have a child that you will have to clothe, care for, and educate for the next 18+ years?

Are you aware that couples that live together outside of marriage, and those that have sex outside of marriage and then get married, have a higher percentage of divorce than others?  Living together and having sex outside of marriage does not bring you emotionally closer, only physically.

If your love is true and pure, then I really need to know why you're not getting married, right now.  It only takes a few bucks for a license, you're both old enough, and you can do it legally.  If your love is true and pure, then your marriage will work.  If there are extenuating circumstances to prevent you from marrying now, then those circumstances are most likely excellent ones to prevent you from having sex, too.

But I could be wrong, after 30 years of youth ministry.  So it's up to you.  But hey, you wrote me - you must have been thinking SOMETHING was wrong if you need my opinion.  So, you've got my opinion.  The decision is now yours.  Please let me know of your decision.

blessings,
carl



-----Answer-----
Bobby-

Thanks for being truthful - I stand by my original answer - if you are not old enough to get married, you're not old enough to have sex.  Period.  There's so much more to marriage than just sex.  I know it's bound to be difficult for you to remain pure, but I think it's essential.  Waiting until you are financially independent is an excellent idea - a very good reason for waiting.

Do this - concentrate on your spiritual lives - go to church, go to Bible study, explore what love really is.  Don't put yourself in a position that you will regret.  I'm going to enclose an essay that I've written on "How Far is Too Far".  Hopefully, it will help you make some wise decisions.  Let me know if it helps, and thanks for the positive feedback.

blessings,
carl




How Far is Too Far?
An essay by Carl Fuglein

God gave us sex.  He intended it to be used for creating children.  See the following Bible references:

(Gen 2:21-23 NIV)  
So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and closed up the place with flesh.  Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.  The man said, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called 'woman, ' for she was taken out of man." For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.


Genesis 3:16 (NIV)
To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

An interpretation of 3:16 would indicate that sexual desire or affection is an okay thing, within marriage, because God said so.

Gen 4:1  Then Adam had sexual intercourse with Eve his wife, and she conceived and gave birth to a son, Cain (meaning "I have created"). For, as she said, "With God's help, I have created a man!"

Exodus 20:14 (NIV)
"You shall not commit adultery.”

Sexual relations before marriage is a sin.  This is perfectly clear, one of the 10 commandments,

Exodus 20:17 (NIV)
"You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

Not only is adultery a sin, but even "thinking" about it is a sin (verse 17 – covet means want or desire).

These references are pretty clear, a strict Biblical stance.  What is not clear is simply this:  "What constitutes sex?"  This is the actual question that you are asking when you ask “How far is too far?”  There are many reasons why you may be asking this question.  One is that you're looking for someone to give you a specific limit.  Two, you're looking for permission to do certain "things" without feeling guilt.  Third, you really don’t know what, in God's eyes, constitutes sex.  Look up these words in the dictionary:  sex; sexual intercourse; coitus.  Still not very clear, is it.  In my dictionary, sexual intercourse has two definitions - one is coitus, the other is "sexual union involving genital contact, but without penile penetration".  But human sexuality is not just physical. It's an intellectual, social, ethical and spiritual act with social consequences, and it’s difficult to define.

So, I ask again, what sexual activity is a sin and what is not?  Before I try to answer that, let me talk to you about roller coasters.  I hope you ride roller coasters, because it will be easier for you to understand what I'm saying.  I know you're asking, what does this have to do with sex?  Bear with me, I'll make the connection.

Do you remember the first time you rode a roller coaster?  What emotions went through your mind?  Fear and excitement were the emotions I experienced.  You got into the car, and your heart started pumping faster and faster.  You went up the first hill, and you got even more excited, and more scared.  Maybe you screamed "let me get off" because you lost your nerve.  But, too late, you're on the road - you can't get off.  You hit the top of the first hill, and you're thinking, "oh I'm gonna die".  Then you rush down that first hill and think, "Wow, what a rush, that wasn't so bad, in fact it was really fun."  And there you go, up and down all the hills, and when you're through, you want to find a bigger, faster, scarier roller coaster, maybe one that turns you upside down.  And, if you're like me, you just can't stop riding roller coasters.  You figure out that you're NOT going to die, and that you like the feeling of exhilaration it gives you.  And you will find that the first, roller coaster won't produce the same feeling once you've gotten on one bigger and faster.  (As a side note - this is a proven fact.  The first Space Shuttle in 1981 had two people on board - John Young and Bob Crippen.  Young had been in space before - he had flown on an earlier Apollo flight into space.  Crippen never had flown into space before.  Right before lift off, Young's heart rate was about 90, Crippen's was 120+)

So, what does this have to do with sex?   Keep reading.

The feeling you get - excitement and fear, is caused by adrenaline, a hormone.  Other hormones that affect your body during sexual arousal are every bit as powerful in making you excited.   Some of the feelings that you experience on a roller coaster, you will experience during sex.  You'll experience other feelings, too, that are even more powerful.   The addiction you might get for roller coasters (i.e., wanting bigger, higher, faster, scarier), is similar to an addiction to sex, i.e., wanting more and more and more out of a physical relationship, and just like you have to ride a bigger rollercoaster to get the same adrenaline rush as you did before, you may have to get more or “different” sex to get the same rush.  And if you ride a coaster once, you'll ride it again, and again, and again.  I'm 58 - I STILL love roller coasters, and I'm STILL looking for bigger and better coasters.  But there’s another factor to sex that doesn’t happen with roller coasters – when you have sex, you give away some of your emotions, some of your heart, and some of your purity that God gave you.  There’s no roller coaster that I’m emotionally involved with.

Human sexuality is complex. Women need a reason to have sex. Men need a place. Women are sexually stimulated by receiving flowers from their boyfriends. Men are sexually stimulated merely by looking at their girlfriends without ever coming in contact with them. So, should you never look at your girlfriend or give her flowers? It's all part of the human sexuality "dance" leading to sexual union. Peacocks strut their feathers, humans do all sorts of strange things prior to having sex. When you're older and in a committed marriage relationship, merely "talking" and "cuddling" can constitute sex or foreplay. The answer, I think, is where do you put the "line" and I think that the "line" may be in different places for different people.

So, we come back to the question again, what is sex?  A physical relationship might go like this:

1.   You see a pretty girl.  She smiles at you.
2.   You talk to her.  She talks to you.  You both laugh.
3.   She tells a friend to tell a friend to tell you that she LIKES you.
4.   You tell a friend to tell a friend to tell her that you LIKE HER BACK.
5.   You talk some more.
6.   You go to the library to "study".
7.   On the way home, you hold hands.
8.   You go out on your first "date".
9.   You hold hands, and at the door when you drop her off, you give her a hug, and maybe even kiss her, once, quickly.
10.   You go out again, and maybe kiss her twice or nibble on her ear.
11.   After you've been going out for a while, you experiment, and you French kiss.
12.   Wow, that was fun, what's next?  Lying down on a couch perhaps, but "just kissing".
13.   While still fully clothed, but lying on a bed, you touch her and she touches you, use your imagination as to where.
14.   Step 14 is the same as 13, only with buttons unbuttoned and zippers unzipped.
15.   Ditto, only maybe without SOME clothes
16.   Ditto again, only with NO clothes.
17.   Mutual masturbation. (this might start occurring in step 13)
18.   Oral sex. (Could happen as early as 15)
19.   Protected sexual intercourse.
20.   Unprotected sexual intercourse.

Question - at which step above do you commit a sin?  What is the definition of sex?  Where does being friends end and “sex” begin?  The difference between 1 and 2 is tiny.  The difference between 9 and 10 is tiny.  The difference between 17 and 18 is tiny.  The difference between 1 and 20 is HUGE.  Consider the step that YOU think is a sin, and your girlfriend agrees;  - pretend that step is a cliff.  If you go that far, you're going to fall off the cliff - and every step after that one will be tiny, but hey, it doesn't matter, because you already fell off the cliff.  Once you've decided where that cliff is, just like in real life if you were to walk to the edge of the Grand Canyon, take at LEAST two steps back, just in case, and say, "Okay, I feel comfortable looking at the Grand Canyon from here, two steps back, but if I get closer, the excitement of the view is not worth the fear and or guilt of getting too close to the edge.  Remember the roller coaster.  You get on the first hill and you want to get off, but it's too late - you're going to go down that first hill whether you want to or not.  For most people, getting on that roller coaster is step 11 or 12.  Once you get on, you have a really difficult time stopping that roller coaster car - once you're on, you're on.

Where should you place your cliff?  That's pretty much up to you based on your experience and your morals.  90+% of adults, if they're honest, will tell you that sex is downright fun, and it is.  But there is a LOT more to sex than just the physical part.  Sex inside marriage is guilt free.  Outside marriage, it's not - it's guilt laden.  Trust me when I tell you that the excitement is NOT worth the guilt, much less the possibility of a sexually transmitted disease or pregnancy.  In addition to STDs and pregnancy, there are an awful lot of emotions that come into play; some of which you won't understand until you're an adult.  Remember that everything you do, along with everyone you do it with, will be in your mind on your wedding night.  If you truly love your bride, wouldn't you want to wait to give it all to her instead of only part of you?  Going all the way will give you emotional baggage that will be extremely hard to empty when you get married, especially if one partner is a virgin, and the other isn't.

So, where do you put the cliff?  We've already talked about what the Bible says.  The Bible does not directly mention French kissing; it doesn't mention oral sex.  But despite what President Clinton said, oral sex IS very much "sex".  ANY genital contact, even with clothes on, in MY opinion, is sex.  Most clinical definitions of sex are just that – ANY genital contact constitutes sex.  In my opinion, French kissing might fall into that category for some, too.  If you're wondering whether or not it's sex, regardless of whether you're right or wrong, there will always be that doubt in your mind.  Some people will decide that if you can’t do something with your mother, you can’t do it with a girlfriend – you might kiss your mom on the lips, but you certainly wouldn’t French kiss her.

What do I base my opinions on from a Biblical point of view?  Sex is God's gift to us for the purpose of having children as well as for our enjoyment.  Anything that would LEAD to the act of making a baby outside of marriage could be a sin. Let me explain, if a step would prepare your body for the act of intercourse, (specifically, causing the male to have an erection or the female’s vagina to become wet) it probably should be considered a sin.  For most people, that point would be step 11, French kissing.  For some, it might not happen until step 12 or 13, for others it might start as early as 9 or 10.  Once you get to that point, i.e., real sexual arousal, any labels become meaningless and it becomes more and more difficult to stop – remember those raging hormones.

So, you and your girlfriend should talk about this, and set your own limits.  You asked my opinion:  step 10 is okay, step 11 may not be, and 12 is definitely bordering on risky behavior.

There are also other things to worry about, too.  The HIV virus has been found in saliva.  That means French kissing someone who has HIV COULD pass it on to you.  It’s unlikely, but if you don’t know who your partner has been with (and if it’s more than you, you also have to take into consideration who the other guy is and how many girls he's been with, etc, etc.)

STD's (sexually transmitted disease) can be transmitted by oral sex.  Some STD’s are painful, some can be deadly.  Regardless, you don’t want them.  And many have no cure.  HIV most definitely would be passed on during oral sex.  And then if you DO get infected with an STD, out of respect for others, you should never have sex again to keep from infecting them.  A scary fact is this:  if you have sex with someone who has had multiple partners, it is almost statistically impossible for you to NOT get an STD.  Another fact is interesting – ALL STDs could be entirely eliminated, if an entire generation lost their virginity only with a virgin – think about it.

Pregnancy, although highly unlikely at step 13, can actually occur then - penile penetration is NOT necessary to make a baby - sperm have a single purpose in mind - to get to an egg, and they CAN get there alive if they are in near proximity to a vagina like they would be in step 15, even with clothes on.   The point is that even with protected sex, you can still easily make babies.  Condoms are only about 85 - 90% effective.  And many STDs are not prevented even with a condom.  If you do it once every 3 days with a condom, your girlfriend could potentially get pregnant as many as 15 times in a year.  Are you willing to take that risk?  A child is yours for life.  Are you willing to be responsible for a child for years just to have a few minutes of fun?  This is part of the joy of sex – my wife and I knew immediately when she got pregnant, and it was truly a blessing and enhanced the physical act.

Maybe I've answered your question, maybe not, but if I haven't, please ask me some more questions.   Talk this over with your girlfriend, and if you're comfortable, with your parents and even his parents.  By the way, if your and your girlfriend's cliffs are in two separate spots - you'll have to agree to the less risky step in order to honor the other's wishes.  This will become more and more important, even within marriage.  The relationship has to be mutual.

And finally, think seriously about this statement:  guys will give away love to get sex.  Girls will give away sex to get love.

And if you've already gone beyond my suggested cliff, don't despair.  There is grace - God loves you and will forgive you.  You must try very hard not to go there again.  

One way you can figure out if a relationship has gone too far is if sex is he only thing you do.  You used to go to the zoo to watch the animals.  Now you go to the library to hide in the back stacks and make out.  You used to go to the movies to actually watch the movie.  Now you go to hold hands, kiss, and more.  You used to come over to each other’s houses to play computer games when mom or dad are home.  Now you wait until you’re pretty sure you’re alone, and you don’t play computer games, but other kind of games.  Trust me, there is so much more to marriage than sex.  Sure, sex is great, but being married to your best friend, even without sex, is better.

Finally, consider this.  Pledge to not have sex until marriage.  Write it down.  Sign it. Something like this on an index card:  

“On __________, 2006, I made a pledge to myself and before God to not have sex until my wedding night.  Here’s my signature to prove it.  This card is my wedding gift to you.”

Put that card in your wallet and carry it with you.  Let it get crumpled and bent and worn out.  And on your wedding night, pull it out of your wallet and hand it to your wife.  It’ll be the best present you will ever give her (until you father her child.)  Trust me on this.



Here’s some links for you to learn more about sex – remember that some of these are secular sources, don’t forget what the Bible says.

http://www.family.org   this is a Christian site.  Enter “sex” then hit “search” – several good articles.

http://www.friendsfirst.org/ An abstinence program primarily for girls

http://www.sxetc.org An online ‘zine for teens, by teens, about sex.  Excellent resource, but remember it’s secular – remember your Bible.  I only recommend this site because it presents a more balanced view.  But I disagree with a LOT of what is said here.

http://www.teenwire.com  This is a site by Planned Parenthood, a widely recognized expert source on sexual matters, however their goal is planning pregnancy, and they don’t necessarily “push” abstinence as “the” answer, only as “an” answer.  Much of this site is written by teens and will give you some insight into what your peers are thinking.  You should know that Planned Parenthood also approves of abortion but I do NOT.  

Answer
As I said before, you have to make your own decisions regarding sex.  I know how difficult that can be.  As a side note, if you were part of my leadership team and I found out that you were having sex on a regular basis, I would ask you to step down from leadership.  You see, sometimes your actions might affect OTHER people even more than it affects you.  As a youth leader, you must be above reproach - leaders are indeed held to a higher standard.

As for growing a youth group - size doesn't matter, quality does.  Do not sacrifice the gospel for having a fun time which a lot of kids participate.  Besides, you're going to have cylces of time when your group is not so large - cherish these times and devlop a deeper realtionship with those that DO come.  We're down to about 12-15 this year - past years have topped 30.  Nothing has changed in the program, what has changed is the number of teens who are the right age.  Your best growth will come from your 8 kids inviting their friends to come to youth group.  Always make youth group welcoming and a safe place for teens to be themselves, and they will come.

hope this helps,

carl