Expert: Carl Fuglein - 5/13/2002

Question
dear sir,
      i need some help with a kind of touchy subject. i just moved to minnesota from san diego california. you would think that that upsets me but it doesn't becuase i ound, or rather the lord gave me the most wonderful and perfect girl that i could ask for. now, the problem is i am a virgina nd she is not, and we have been spending a lot of time together, what we, mostly i becuase it is not something that i have had to deal with before, have been wondering is, i know ow far i wont go, but i am not sure what is ok by God. i have talked to friends that know me, and they know how i feel for this girl and they know that i dont have  lustful bone in my body. i feel love for this girl in a way that i have never known before, and i know that me meeting her is no accident. i am 17 (18 may 25) and she is 18. i am enlisted in the navy and scheduled to ship out jul 17 she is going to college in wisconsin (after high school) i would appreciate a quick thoughtful response, on the matter, and please, dont tell me that i should focus on God becuase i have already given my life to him, He's the reason i enlisted, i wanted to be a mechanic, but He had other plans. just keep in mind that i could have moved anywhere in the world, and i could have gone to any church, but he put me here and sent me to her church.  

Answer
Mike-

Thanks for the positive feedback.  I'm glad I was able to give you something to think about.  Good luck and God's blessings!

Carl



Mike-

Congratulations on joining the Navy.  As a veteran, I'm quite proud of anyone who chooses to serve his country.

I'm guessing your question is how far is too far?  I have written an essay about that very question which I have included below in my answer.  As for your being a virgin, and your girlfriend not, that doesn't really change anything - I'm proud of you, and she is forgiven.  You may be tempted more than usual because you are shipping out, but don't give in to that temptation.  You asked me not to tell you to focus on God - if you think that's my only answer, then you probably shouldn't have written.  My answer may not be quick, but it is very thoughtful, and I believe it to be true.  

If this is NOT the right girl for you, then if you give in to temptation, you will regret it when you finally DO find the girl for you.  You're still awful young to get married. Trust me when I tell you that if this is the girl for you, she will still be there when you come back, and your love for her and vice-versa will grow infinitely while you're gone.

I pray for your safety while you are in the Navy, and I pray that you and your girlfriend make the right choices.

In HIS love,

Carl

How Far is Too Far?
An essay by Carl Fuglein

God gave us sex.  He intended it to be used for creating children.  See the following Bible references:

(Gen 2:21-23 NIV)  
So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and closed up the place with flesh.  Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.  The man said, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called 'woman, ' for she was taken out of man." For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.


Genesis 3:16 (NIV)
To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

A liberal interpretation of 3:16 would indicate that sexual desire or affection is an okay thing, within marriage.

Gen 4:1  Then Adam had sexual intercourse with Eve his wife, and she conceived and gave birth to a son, Cain (meaning "I have created"). For, as she said, "With God's help, I have created a man!"

Exodus 20:14 (NIV)
"You shall not commit adultery.”

Sexual relations before marriage is a sin.  This is perfectly clear, one of the 10 commandments,

Exodus 20:17 (NIV)
"You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

Not only is adultery a sin, but even "thinking" about it is a sin (verse 17).

This references are pretty clear, a strict Biblical stance.  What is not clear is simply this:  "What constitutes sex?"  This is the actual question that you are asking.  There are many reasons why you may be asking this question.  One is that you're looking for someone to give you a specific limit.  Two, you're looking for permission to do certain "things" without feeling guilt.  Third, you really don't know what, in God's eyes, constitutes sex.  Look up these words in the dictionary:  sex; sexual intercourse; coitus.  Still not very clear, is it.  In my dictionary, sexual intercourse has two definitions - one is coitus, the other is "sexual union involving genital contact, but without penile penetration".  

So, I ask again, what sexual activity is a sin and what is not?  Before I try to answer that, let me talk to you about roller coasters.  I hope you ride roller coasters, because it will be easier for you to understand what I'm saying.  I know you're asking, what does this have to do with sex?  Bear with me, I'll make the connection.

Do you remember the first time you rode a roller coaster?  What emotions went through your mind?  Fear and excitement are my emotions.  You got into the car, and your heart started pumping faster and faster.  You went up the first hill, and you got even more excited, and more scared.  Maybe you screamed "let me get off" because you lost your nerve.  But, too late, you're on the road - you can't get off.  You hit the top of the first hill, and you're thinking, "oh I'm gonna die".  Then you rush down that first hill and think, "Wow, what a rush, that wasn't so bad, in fact it was really fun."  And there you go, up and down all the hills, and when you're through, you want to find a bigger, faster, scarier roller coaster, maybe one that turns you upside down.  And, if you're like me, you just can't stop riding roller coasters.  You figure out that you're NOT going to die, and that you like the feeling of exhilaration it gives you.  And you will find that the first, roller coaster won't produce the same feeling once you've gotten on one bigger and faster.  (As a side note - this is a proven fact.  The first Space Shuttle in 1981 had two people on board - John Young and Bob Crippen.  Young had been in space before - he had flown on an earlier Apollo flight into space.  Crippen never had flown into space before.  Right before lift off, Young's heart rate was about 90, Crippen's was 120+)

So, what does this have to do with sex?   Keep reading.

The feeling you get - excitement and fear, is caused by adrenaline, a hormone.  Testosterone, another hormone, is every bit as powerful in making you excited.   Some of the feelings that you experience on a roller coaster, you will experience during sex.  You'll experience other feelings, too, that are even more powerful.   The addiction you might get for roller coasters (i.e., wanting bigger, higher, faster, scarier), is similar to an addiction to sex, i.e., wanting more and more and more out of a physical relationship, and just like you have to ride a bigger rollercoaster to get the same adrenaline rush as you did before, you may have to get more or different "sex" to get the same testosterone rush.  And if you ride a coaster once, you'll ride it again, and again, and again.  I'm 54 - I STILL love roller coasters, and I'm STILL looking for bigger and better coasters.   


So, we come back to the question again, what is sex?  A physical relationship might go like this:

1.   You see a pretty girl.  She smiles at you.
2.   You talk to her.  She talks to you.  You both laugh.
3.   She tells a friend to tell a friend to tell you that she LIKES you.
4.   You tell a friend to tell a friend to tell her that you LIKE HER BACK.
5.   You talk some more.
6.   You go to the library to "study". (Human anatomy, perhaps?)
7.   On the way home, you hold hands.
8.   You go out on your first "date".
9.   You hold hands, and at the door when you drop her off, you give her a hug, and maybe even kiss her, once, quickly.
10.   You go out again, and maybe kiss her twice or nibble on her ear.
11.   After you've been going out for a while, you experiment, and you French kiss.
12.   Wow, that was fun, what's next?  Lying down on a couch perhaps, but "just kissing".
13.   While still fully clothed, but lying on a bed, you touch her and she touches you, use your imagination as to where.
14.   Step 14 is the same as 13, only with buttons unbuttoned and zippers unzipped.
15.   Ditto, only maybe without SOME clothes
16.   Ditto again, only with NO clothes.
17.   Mutual masturbation. (this might start occurring in step 13)
18.   Oral sex. (Could happen as early as 15)
19.   Protected sexual intercourse.
20.   Unprotected sexual intercourse.

Question - at which step above do you commit a sin?  The difference between 1 and 2 is tiny.  The difference between 9 and 10 is tiny.  The difference between 17 and 18 is tiny.  The difference between 1 and 20 is HUGE.  Consider the step which YOU think is a sin, and your girlfriend agrees;  - pretend that step is a cliff.  If you go that far, you're going to fall off the cliff - and every step after that one will be tiny, but hey, it doesn't matter, because you already fell off the cliff.  Once you've decided where that cliff is, just like in real life if you were to walk to the edge of the Grand Canyon, take at LEAST two steps back, just in case, and say, "Okay, I feel comfortable looking at the Grand Canyon from here, two steps back, but if I get closer, the excitement of the view is not worth the fear and or guilt of getting too close to the edge.  Remember the roller coaster.  You get on the first hill and you want to get off, but it's too late - you're going to go down that first hill whether you want to or not.  For most people, getting on that roller coaster is step 12 or 13.  Once you get on, you have a really hard time stopping that car - once you're on, you're on.

Where should you place your cliff?  That's pretty much up to you based on your experience and your morals.  90+% of adults, if they're honest, will tell you that sex is downright fun, and it is.  But there is a LOT more to sex than just the physical part.  Sex inside marriage is guilt free.  Outside marriage, it's not - it's guilt laden.  Trust me when I tell you that the excitement is not worth the guilt, much less the possibility of a sexually transmitted disease or pregnancy.  In addition to STDs and pregnancy, there are an awful lot of emotions that come into play; some of which you won't understand until you're an adult.  Remember that everything you do, along with everyone you do it with, will be in your mind on your wedding night.  If you truly love your bride, wouldn't you want to wait to give it all to her instead of only part of you?  Going all the way will give you emotional baggage that will be extremely hard to empty when you get married, especially if one partner is a virgin, and the other isn't.

So, where do you put the cliff?  We've already talked about what the Bible says.  The Bible does not directly mention French kissing; it doesn't mention oral sex.  But despite what President Clinton says, oral sex IS very much "sex".  And in my opinion, French kissing might fall into that category for some, too.  If you're wondering whether or not it's sex, regardless of whether you're right or wrong, there will always be that doubt in your mind.

What do I base my opinion on from a Biblical point of view?  Sex is God's gift to us for the purpose of having children.  Anything that would LEAD to the act of making a baby outside of marriage could be a sin. Let me explain, if a step would prepare your body for the act of intercourse, (specifically, causing you to have an erection) it could be considered a sin.  For most people, that point would be step 11, French kissing.  For some, it might not happen until step 12 or 13, for others it might start as early as 9 or 10.  If it doesn't happen by step 14, that would be highly unusual.

So, you and your girlfriend should talk about this, and set your own limits.  You asked my opinion, and I think for high school students, that step 11 is plenty and 12 is bordering on risky behavior.

There are also other things to worry about, too.  The HIV virus has been found in saliva.  That means French kissing someone who has HIV COULD pass it on to you.  It's unlikely, but if you don't know who your partner has been with (and if it's more than you, you also have to take into consideration who the other guy is and how many girls he'' been with, etc, etc,.)

Most STD's (sexually transmitted disease) can be transmitted by oral sex.  Some STD's are painful, some can be deadly.  Regardless, you don't want them.  And some have no cure.  HIV most definitely would be passed on during oral sex.  And then if you DO get infected with an STD, out of respect for others, you should never have sex again to keep from infecting them.

Pregnancy, although highly unlikely at step 13, can actually occur then - penile penetration is NOT necessary to make a baby - sperm have a single purpose in mind - to get to an egg, and they CAN get there alive if they are in near proximity like they would be in step 15 even with clothes on.   The point is that even with protected sex, you can still easily make babies.  Prophylactics are only about 85 - 90% effective.  If you do it once every 3 days, your girlfriend could potentially get pregnant as many as 15 times.  Are you willing to take that risk?  A child is yours for life.  Are you willing to be responsible for a child for years just to have a few minutes of fun?  This is part of the joy of sex – my wife and I knew immediately when she got pregnant, and it was truly a blessing and enhanced the physical act.

Maybe I've answered your question, maybe not, but if I haven't, please ask me some more questions.   Talk this over with your girlfriend, and if you're comfortable, with your parents and even her parents.  I'm proud of you for two reasons - 1) that your girlfriend and you have talked about it already, and 2) that you're seeking advice from an adult.  I don't have all the answers, but I do have some.  Please let me know what you think of my answer and let me know, if you want, as to where your cliff is.  By the way, if your and your girlfriend's cliffs are in two separate spots - you'll have to agree to the less risky step in order to honor the other's wishes.  This will become more and more important, even within marriage.  The relationship has to be mutual.

And if you've already gone beyond my suggested cliff, don't despair.  There is grace - God loves you and will forgive you.  You must try very hard not to go there again.  

One way you can figure out if a relationship has gone too far is if sex is the only thing you do.  You used to go to the zoo to watch the animals.  Now you go to the library to hide in the back stacks and make out.  You used to go to the movies to actually watch the movie.  Now you go to hold hands, kiss, and more.  You used to come over to each other's houses to play computer games when mom or dad are home.  Now you wait until you're pretty sure you're alone, and you don't play computer games, but other kind of games.  Trust me, there is so much more to marriage than sex.  Sure, sex is great, but being married to your best friend, even without sex, is better.

Good luck figuring all this out.

Any Questions?


Here's some links for you to learn more about sex – remember that these are secular sources, don't forget what the Bible says.

http://www.family.org:8765/search/  this is a Christian site.  Enter “sex” then hit “search” – several good articles.

http://www.sxetc.org/ An online ‘zine for teens, by teens, about sex.  Excellent resource, but remember it's secular – remember your Bible.  

http://www.teenwire.com/   This is a site by Planned Parenthood, a widely recognized expert source on sexual matters, however their goal is planning pregnancy, and they don't necessarily “push” abstinence as “the” answer, only as “an” answer.  Much of this site is written by teens and will give you some insight into what your peers are thinking.  You should know that Planned Parenthood also approves of abortion (and most religions do not).