Chrysler Repair/trans changed, now no start: '97 Concorde3.5
QUESTION: After a transmission change I have a no start, no spark, no injector
pulse and no 8volts to crank sensor.I've been following your forum and
have so far tried many of the tests for no start conditions.I have
checked timing belt and it's on the money.I checked fuel rail pressure
and have 50lbs.I have done the hand crank for 5v/.0v alternating but it
does'nt change.I can hear a relay kick in and out as I turn the crank.
Don'tknow if it's the asd or fuel pump relay.I did notice that the wires
on my ckp have differant color codes than illustrations on other internet
forums.Could there have been a harness change?This car ran into the shop
fine,but after tranny change this happened.So far, I've tried new CKP,
cam sensor,ign switch,and even new PCM.How about some differance in the
Wiring loom (which I have also gone to the length of going over with
ohmeter and soldering and shrinkwrapping anything that looked suspect.
There were wires to the idle-air motor that were pretty brittle and
even bare in places. They got a repair & rewrap.No change.Roland,I've
spent most of my life as a mechanic in both dealers and independant
shops.Granted, I've been out of the loop on electronics for some time
butI don't give up easily.This one is starting to get to me.What can I
ANSWER: Hi John,
I have the '98 manual and the '94 so I will check both wiring diagrams to see which apply to this part of your '97.
Have you tried the fault code readout using the ignition switch: "on-off-on-off-on and leave on" doing that in 5 seconds or less elapsed time? Then watch both the check engine light, which remains 'on' to see if it begins to flash, pause, flash, etc. and count the number of flashes before each pause OR see if a 4-digit fault code appears in place of the mileage reading in the odometer window. Let me know what you find.
The lack of 8v on the orange wire at the crank sensor (and likely too at the cam sensor) is going to most likely cause the ASD relay to remain open for lack of there being either/both the crank and the cam sensor signals to the PCM.
The 8v comes from the PCM at pin 44 of the gray plug. It is carried on an orange wire along the PCM harness to a black 14-pin disconnect near the left front of the engine (at pin 10 of the disconnect) and from there to a splice (also at the front of the engine) where there are spliced in two orange wires branching respectively to the two sensors. So see if you can find where that 8v was lost or where the wire is shorted to ground. Once you get that corrected you may have solve the problem because you have to have signals coming from both of the sensors for the ASD to close and spark/fuel injector, etc. action.
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: Hi Roland,
There appear to be no stored or pending codes,however with the change of the pcm, I suppose that could be why.I did find one pin under the gray plug on the pcm that that pushed down beside the corresponding plug. For a moment I
thought I had found my problem, but after very carefully straightening and
and then replugging it still no 8volts to the ckp. I do have 9v at the cam sensor, 9v at the map sensor,at the violet wire on ckpI read the 5.5volts.
but still no 5to 0 volts while turning the crank. Also, I still do not get
the placement of the colorcoded wires on my ckp.Illustrations I have found
on the net show, looking at the plug on the ckp from left to right the
orange wire then in the center the black/blue ground and on the right a
blue wire. However on my plug the orange wire has a black tracer and is
located on the far left of the plug when viewing at it on the ckp. then
the black/blue wire in the center and the violet wire(which has a white
tracer is on the far right of the plug. Bear in mind this thing was running fine and no wires were changed other than the wires unplugged
from the tranny. I have removed the harness again and checked carefully
from the 14 pin disconnect all thru this thing and it is possible that I'm not the first to dig into it,but Idon't think so. Oh, I also found the
spice in the orange wire and it looks factory to me.Also, the orange/black
that goes to my ckp comes from another pin in the disc. plug, not from the
orange wire that is spliced so nicely.Roland can you suggest a source for a wiring diagram showing wire colors so that we can be on the same page?
One more thing,my multimeter seems to be accurate but the 9volt readings
on cam sensor makes me wonder where that extra volt came from.
ANSWER: Hi John,
As mentioned earlier, I have the '94 and '98 Chrysler manuals to compare against what you have and also a 93-97 Haynes manual. I agree with some but not all of your listings:
All show the orange wire as being 8v, the black/light blue (the center pin) to be a ground, and the signal wire for the crank position sensor to be light blue/dark blue '94, '94-97 and gray/black '98. The violet/white is a 5v wire and is found on the map but on neither the cam or crank sensors. The orange wire is never shown with a black trace. The sentence "I do have 9 v at cam sensor..." is confusing.
If you have 9 on the orange at the cam, then you should have 9 on the orange at the crank because those wires both branch off of a common splice so the crank orange wire is apparently disconnected between the splice and the plug. I don't see a orange/black on the 14 pin disconnect, just the orange at pin 10 that goes to splice where it splits an orange to each sensor ('98). So either the wiring was unique in the '97 but the Haynes also shows what I describe. You have to get the same 9v on the orange at the ckp sensor to get a pulsing output signal from it.
The only other source would be a '97 Chryseler service manual that you can probably find used on eBay.
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: Hi Roland,
On this harness the orange wire definately has a blacktracer and I unwrapped the
harness and followed it all the way back to the 14pin disconnect.It also has the orange wire that I followed to the 2wire splice.Going back to the orange/black
wire,it connects to what looks like an orange/blue wire which winds up back at
the black many pinned plug at the pcm.I then tested the orange/blue with my now
over used ohmeter confimed it was the same wire connecting thru the14 pin disc
to the infamous orange/black wire.Ihave tried to attach pix of these wires &plugs.
It sure looks to me like the orange? and the black/blue ground wires are reversed
othe ckp plug.How could it have been running like this?I'm running out of hair to
pullout! I hope these pix come thru.I'll send them in a seperate message.
Have you tested the continuity of the Orange wire at the Crank position sensor plug (should show as pin 3 of that plug) and Orange wire at the Camshaft position sensor plug (should show as pin 1 of that plug)? By continuity I mean the resistance between those two pins should be 0 ohms. If that is not 0 ohms, but rather infinite ohms, then one of the two orange wires from the common splice is "open" and since you don't have 8v on the wire to the ckp plug it has to be that wire from the splice to the ckp plug.
I don't see an orange/blue wire to be anywhere connected to either an orange or an orange/black wire. So you may have mistaken that color identification.
As to 'reversed wiring' at the 2 sensor plugs, the black/light blue ground wires are both on pin 2. Pin numbers should be 'etched' in to surface of the plugs. Pin 2 is the middle pin.
The sensor's signal wire is on pin 1 of the ckp, and on pin 3 of the cmp plug, and the orange wire is on pin 3 of the ckp plug and on pin 1 of the cmp plug. So look closely at the plugs to see the pin numbers when doing the measurement for the orange wire's continuity between the two sensors. That is the way you are going to get 8v to the ckp and thus a hope of getting the engine running again.
Given that the repair work when this happened was removing/installing the trans, I would suspect that the orange wire on the ckp plug got detached from the plug pin by the harness being momentarily snagged by the moving transmission in the process. You would need to repair that disconnection at the plug. This would explain a lack of continuity between the orange wire pins of the two plugs and why you don't have 8v to the crank sensor orange pin. Of course the 'open' could also be anywhere along wire or even at the common splice, but that is my guess.