AboutRoland Finston Expertise I take questions about domestic Chrysler-product front wheel drive cars and minivans for the years 1982-2000 based upon my experience and shop manuals. I don't have detailed information (e.g. manuals) nor expertise for Jeeps, trucks, SUV's, import vehicles, or for years more recent than 2000 (except Sebring/Stratus I have '03).
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Experience I have been a do-it-yourself auto hobbyist for 5 decades, and most recently have been concentrating on the various Chrysler Corporation domestic front wheel drive cars and vans. I have shop manuals and wiring diagrams for many models for the years '83-'00, as well as rear wheel drive cars for the early 80's. I enjoy analyzing problems that other Chrysler enthusiasts are having and sharing my information.
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Expert: Roland Finston Date: 6/22/2005 Subject: follow-up Power control module, engine won't start
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I have a 1997 chrysler cirrus. THe car does not start under hot condition about two or three times a week. I finally took it to the dealership, and the want to charge me $ 650 to replace the Power control module. THat's all they saud to me. Is this the Distributor? Can I do it myself? and how? How much is the right price to pay? How many PCM are there in my car?
Thank you Roland
LUIS SANCHEZ
Answer -
Hi Luis,
You are welcome. I would not opt for a PCM replacement without solid proof that is the reason for your problem.
The best way to determine that is to do a fault code readout of the memory uf your present PCM (there is only one such PCM in any car, though there may be a separate TCM for the transmission). I believe you may be able to do this readout yourself:
Try using the ignition key: turn it "on-off-on-off-on" and leave it "on" (doing this quickly, no longer than 5 seconds). By "on" I mean just the normal position when the engine is running, not the cranking position. The 'check engine' light will remain on when you leave the key in the "on" position with the engine still not running. But then watch the 'check engine' light to begin flashing, then pause, flashing, pause, etc. Count the number of flashes before each pause and keep track of the numbers. Repeat the readout and verify the counts are correct. Then group them in pairs in the order that they came out, thus forming two digit numbers. You may notice that the pause is shorter between the digits of a given number, and longer between the numbers themselves. Then send me a 'follow-up' question telling me the results of your readout. By the way, 55 will be the last number (two groups of 5 flashes each) and that is the code for "end of readout".
I have the troubleshooting manual for several engines and we can look up the possibilities of what is wrong based upon what fault codes you show. When you write back tell me which engine is in the car you are driving.
There is also an essay on fault codes at the site: http://www.allpar.com/fix/codes.html
which gives the meaning of the code numbers. But then you need to get specific info for what exactly might be the diagnostic tests or parts to replace to complete the repair.
If the "check engine" light will not do the readout as I described, then it may be necessary to have shop do it at a cost of under $50. If you look at the invoice from when you went to the dealership, does it say they charged you for a code readout? and if so, does it say what code was read out? If they did a readout, but didn't write down the code then I believe they owe you another free readout so you can find out what the code number(s) are, and then you can write back to me with that information.
The PCM is the Brain of the engine control system. It is not hard to replace at all, just unplug the old, plug in the new, but the cost of the unit is the problem. These seldom fail, and in any case if one does, you can probably do better getting a used one from a wrecking yard. It is not the distributor (in fact you probably don't have a distributor on that car!).
So try to get a handle on the codes and write me back when you do.
Difficulty starting when the car is warm is more likely something simple like the temperature sensor mounted on the intake manifold which tells the PCM to adjust the mixture to take that warm engine into account. That is also why I'm suspicious of what the dealer is proposing you do.
Roland
Hey roland!
Well I went to the dealership an I asked the question about the codes. They said that the technician did not find any codes in the car, and that he diagnosed it by tracing up the wires, and checking for discontinuity. They also told me that there is no electricity going through the spark wires, plus they said that the car does not start under hot conditions only, but under regular conditions as well. They asked me to replaced the powertrain control module, but I refused to it, because of the price. Unfurtunately I drove the car out of the lot, and as soon as I pulled out of the parking lot, and check engine light lid up. I just bought a OBD II, and I'll get back to you with the codes. The car now refuses to start at all, and I can't really figure out the trick about the "on-off-on-off-on". All I get is a zero so far that appears before the actual milage. By on and off position, do you mean from "as soon as I put the key in", until the position before cranking? Where is PCM located in the car?
Thank you Sir for your time.
I hope to hear from you soon
Answer -
Hi Luis,
On the ignition key question, it seems that by 1997 that technique was no longer available (it was part of the OBD-I system but not the OBD-II which is what your car apparently has). I wasn't sure which type you had so I mentioned it as a possibility. The OBD-II reader should give you a verification of what the dealer said, or give us a code to work with.
On the location of the PCM, you will see it located between the air cleaner housing and the power distribution center. It has two large plugs (one 40-pin, one 80-pin).
So let me know what you learn from the reader.
Roland
Hey Roland, It's me again. I hope everything is ok. I finally got the scanner, but unfurtunately I could not find any codes in the memory of the car, maybe because I did not have a check engine light or so. I'm really lost with my car. I was hoping I got a code, but nothing popped up. I think I'm going to buy a computer from a junk yard, Is there a model number on it, Does the Dodge stratus' work on mine, or another one? my car is a 97 chrysler cirrus LXI 2.5 V6.
Any sugestions instead of buying the computer?
THank you
LUIS SANCHEZ
Answer -
Hi Luis,
It is a frustration to have a "no start" situation. I believe on the PCM you will definitely want one from a car with the identical engine and probably the same model year. I believe that the Dodge of Chrysler label would not be important as long as the cars are from the same body line (e.g. cirrus/stratus should interchange).
Is it still the case that you can't get the car to start at all? or just when it is warmed up? If it will start when cold then I would wonder if you have checked out the temperature sensors and their wiring sufficiently to conclude that the PCM needs to be replaced. I just would hate to have you spend the money on a used PCM and not have the problem solved. You can start throwing money at part replacements without achieving you goal.
So let me know what else I can do to help you.
Roland
Hey Roland!
In the morning I started the car, then I shut it off, and five minutes later I tried to restart it, but It refused. This afternoon I bought the PCM for my car, I pulled it out of a same car. Although It did not work. The car still does not start. I started thinking that the problem is not related to the temperature now. The car just refuses to start for the most part. Is there something that I can check(sensors, wires...) before I take it again to the shop?
Thank you
BYE
Answer -
Hi Luis,
Sure, lets take the conventional approach. When it won't start you first want to check for spark from the coil. The car has a combined coil and distributor cap, and rotor so what you want is to take one of the spark plug wires out of the distributor cap and remove its other end from a spark plug, then remove the distributor cap and rotor, then plug the spark plug wire into the terminal that is the one for the spark coil output (which is revealed when you remove the distributor cap), put a spare spark plug into the other end of the wire, then hold the threaded shell of the spark plug against the cylinder head and ask a helper to crank for 5 seconds. You should then observe whether you get a spark for 5 seconds, 1 second, or not at all. Write back and tell me what the answer is to that.
Roland
Hey Roland!
I remember doing that a week ago, I took a spark plug wire out and the plug it in to another spark plug, then I cranked the car but no spark showed up between the spark plug and the metal. I'll do it again if necessary, I didn't know it had to be the plug for the coil.
let me know if you recommend doing it again.
Thanks
Answer Hi Luis,
Just using one of the plug wires directly also puts the rotor and distributor cap in the "loop" so you need to verify that the problem isn't either of those by going directly to the coil output to see if the coil is actually putting out a spark.
If it is, then the rotor or cap is bad, if it isn't then you have some more wiring to check:
"I assume that you have shown that you don't have spark using a spark plug with the shell grounded to the cylinder head with the spark plug wire inserted into the coil tower (thus by-passing the rotor and the cap) while someone cranks it for you.
To check for the coil's wiring to the rest of the system, note that there is a 6-way and a 2-way (with only 1 wire) connector to the coil/distributor. Using an ohmmeter:
check for continuity between pin 11 of the pcm and pin 1 of the 6-way (black/gray) which is the ignition coil driver wire;
check for contiunity between 6-way pin 2 (black) and ground;
check for continuity between PCM pin 6 and pin 2 of the 2-way connector (dark green/orange or black/red?) which is the ASD relay output wire;
check the resistor in the distributor cap itself:measure between the center button and the ignition coil terminal; it should be about 5,000 ohms.
You can check the primary of the coil by measuring the resistance between the socket at the coil where the single wire (black/red or dark green/orange?) of the 2-pin connector is normally connected and a ground: it should be 0.6 to 0.8 ohms
The secondary coil resistance can be measured between the coil tower and the same point as just described above on the 2-way socket at the coil: it should read 12 to 18k ohms.
There is a resistor in the distributor cap: it should read 5,000 ohms between the center button and the tower terminal.
Check the rotor for continuity (no resistance value is given in the manual).
While I have focussed on the coil, etc. be aware that the failure of any of the sensors could cause the ASD relay to open which would kill the spark too, so that is why you want to verify that the ASD relay is in fact closed (there is voltage at the fuel pump when the engine is being cranked, or you have 12V on the red/black or dark green orange? wire on the 2-way connector coming to the distributor which is the ASD output voltage."
That is a response I sent to another 2.5L owner with a no start problem. So do the spark plug test at the coil output and act accordingly.
Roland
