Expert: Hoyt Roberson - 3/28/2008

Question
QUESTION: I recently had a debate/discussion with some of my friends(they are traditional southern baptist) on the way the Church of Christ handles homosexuals in Church. I explained to them several of my beliefs on the issue: Matthew 25:30 (which they said is irrelevant to the issue), Matthew 18:15-17 (which they said meant that on the issue if the person refuses to change we should simply 'let them be,' and I also brought up Matthew 18:8-9 (which they also said is irrelevant to the issue).
Their ideas are that, and I do somewhat agree with them, everyone sins and all sins are equal and removing a homosexual from the church is the same as removing any other person because we all sin and no one is perfect. They also said that because the Bible says not to judge others, we are going against the word of God in doing this.
My explanation was that we are all sinners, but the Church is for people to worship, learn, and better themselves; though we all have faults, if one of us is constantly living a life of sin without any attempts to change, they have no place in the church.
Is there any advice you could offer me on the subject?
Am I wrong/right on the subject in your opinion?
Have I missed any scripture that relates to the subject?
Any and all advice will be gladly accepted.
(Please keep in mind these are very close friends of mine and I'd just like more insight on the subject so as to better prepare myself if the issue ever comes up again.)

ANSWER: Bill,

My first bit of advice is to not argue the point with your buddies.

But, friendships being what they are, this will likely come up again, so here it goes....

The following assumes that the behavior in question is sinful, since that is the context in which you and your friends are having your debate. Whether or not that assumption is correct is another discussion altogether and I will not address that in the following comments. The following concerns anything the community considers to be sin, whether I do or not. So, with that understanding clearly in mind....

There is no single way in which Churches of Christ "handle homosexuals in the church." The congregations with which I am familiar would likely approach the question from widely differing viewpoints.

Your friends' rationale that we all sin therefore we cannot judge others, reveals a rather poor grasp of Scripture. When we are told to not judge others, the import is that we cannot pass judgment on someone's relationship with God, nor should we compare our righteousness to that of (perceived lesser) others. The prohibition against judging does not extend to evaluating the behaviors of others in the community. Paul is very clear that those who cause dissension, who teach things that are not appropriate doctrine, who push their personal agendas to the detriment of the community may well be told to sit down and color, or removed from the community.

This latter action has two primary purposes: 1) to protect the community from false and dangerous doctrine, and 2) to admonish those with unChristian behavior to straighten up. In fact, these two purposes are part of the reason to have congregational elders/pastors who look out for the welfare of the flock. However, the exercise of this kind of evaluation must be done with humility and care. Even so, Paul expects it to be done.

It is true that we are all sinners; it is not true that therefore any and all sin in the community is to be tolerated. While all sin represents a failure to live as we have been called to live, mass murder is clearly worse than speeding on one's way to church. We would likely not expel a brother for speeding, but might very well prevent a mass murderer from becoming pastor.

So, your friends are incorrect in their understanding of judging others and in their blanket "let them be" interpretation of Matthew.

Your understanding of church is a good one but lacks the concept of community being a place where imperfect people can find acceptance and care from other imperfect people. Therefore, in addition to being a place to better oneself, church is also a place in which we can operationalize our Christianity in caring for and accepting others who sin just as we do.

The trick is to find a balance between acceptance of sinners and protecting the flock, and that is not always easy to do.

As to your Scripture references, the Matthew 25 citation is likely irrelevant in this discussion since we aren't talking in context about sinners but folks with lack of faith - or failure to grow. Sinners remain sinners (imperfect) even as they grow in Christ.

The Matthew 18.15-17 selection isn't about excommunicating someone, but how I should approach someone who sins against me. It does not discuss someone in the community who continues in blatant sinful behavior. Paul is quite clear in the Corinthian correspondence that he expects them to "expel the immoral brother," Scripture injunctions against judging notwithstanding. However, in the Corinthian case, the sin is public, persistent, and improper. The Matthew passage is interpersonal. The Corinthian correspondence on this question would likely serve you better than the Matthew passages you've selected for any community public sin.

The Matthew 18.8-9 passage doesn't seem to fit this discussion well, since it speaks to me as an individual and my personal obstacles rather than community life.

So, to answer your questions and requests....
The above is my advice and insight on the scenario as you have presented it, and as I understand the central question.
You are correct in asserting that communities are to remove threats from among them, but the verses you have presented do not seem to fit the discussion. Rather than using Matthew to push a point that I don't believe he does, you may consider a closer review of the Roman and Corinthian correspondence for general guidance on judging any behavior.
For the purposes of having a clear discussion with your friends, you might consider separating the state of being homosexual from persistent sexual behavior.

In the foregoing, I have, for the sake of argument, assumed the discussion as you have described it, to hold a valid view concerning the sinfulness of homosexuality and/or practice (it isn't clear to me whether the discussion concerned homosexual orientation, or homosexual behavior, which are not the same). I have NOT attempted to illustrate either the accuracy or inaccuracy of that assumption. For the purposes of addressing your question(s), it is not necessary that I do.

It is somewhat inaccurate to speak of -A- treatment that Churches of Christ may apply to this or any other Biblical question, just as it would be inaccurate to speak of a binding Baptist view of most questions. I suspect that there are as many Baptist (Primitive, Independent, American, Southern, etc) approaches to similar questions as there are Church of Christ approaches.

Let me know if any of that doesn't make sense.

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Thank you very much for the help on this issue. I was/am very surprised to find such a quick and insightful response.
I understood and explained the difference between being homosexual and persistent sexual behavior (which we all agree on); I also gave them the hypothetical situations of having a drug dealer or pedophile present in Church and how the situations would be handled the same. The one idea they had that they believed contradicted mine was that 'God wants everyone to attend Church.' This is a very hard point for me to argue with, how would you suggest me to respond to this?
I understand that the verses I used may not directly apply to these situations, but I do believe that they do advise us on how we should deal with those who live lives full of sin. One more being Matthew 10:14.
I would greatly appreciate if you could explain Paul's ideas in further detail. I believe I know what you're referring to, but more insight would be greatly appreciated.
If you have any more ideas or suggestions for this topic please feel free to offer me advice.
Again, I thank you for your time and advice on the situation.
Bill

ANSWER: Bill,

You're welcome, and thanks.

I don't know that "God wants everyone to attend church." At least not as a rule to keep. God has told us a number of times what He wants from His followers, one example of which is Micah 6.8, "Love mercy, act justly, and walk humbly with God." That is the essence of what God has always wanted from those who follow Him.

As far as going to church goes, attendance is a result of who we are. Christians, at least those who are mature enough, understand that existence isn't about them, it's about others. Christians also respond to their God with thanksgiving, praise, and even laments.

Church as a separate gathering, separated from the community is a foreign idea. Church is community and we assemble together to both respond to God and minister to others. Christians who understand those ideas about church would naturally assemble with their fellow humans, rather than refuse to assemble together - or think that their individual response is the only thing that matters. And so one's church attendance isn't so much a rule-keeping exercise as it is an expression of one's faith, and one's understanding of community.

As a parallel, one's remaining married isn't so much a rule-keeping necessity, but something one does because we understand both the import of what marriage is intended to be, and we strive to live like God would have us. Divorce isn't the sin - it is simply the expression of it.

Give me an idea of what else you'd like discussed as far as Paul goes, and I'll give it a shot - tomorrow. ;)

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Thankyou,
I guess 1Corinthians 5:1-13 kind of 'trumps' their argument, but I still think that they will say that is not referring to Church. Anyways, I really do appreciate your help on this issue, although it seems my friends and I have "agreed to disagree" and now have a better understanding of the situation.
Bill

Answer
You're welcome. I agree with your assessment of 1 Cor 5. It seems to me that verses 4 and 5 are pretty easily understood.

"When you are assembled [presumably in church] in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan [some sort of judging must have preceded this], so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord."

It does not appear to me that this depicts "letting them be."

But to each his own, I suppose. ;)