Expert: Joe Norman - 8/25/2008

Question
I have used the same argument to answer question about business meeting in the past.  Recently I've  began to question certain things about this argument.  Please respond to my concerns below:

1.  In the New Testament church elders are put in place to shepherd the local congregation (Titus 1:5).  Where is the scriptural reference for having the men (not elders) of the congregation meet in private to discuss things pertaining to local church?

   a.   Is this reference am implied conclusion, tradition of the NT church, tradition of men, or a direct statement?

2.  Is the business meeting a function (essential for salvation) of the local church?

   a.   Where is the scriptural authority for this function?

   b.   If business meetings are a function of the local church, shouldn’t the congregation be present as a whole at these meetings?

   c.   If business meetings are not a function of the local church then why do you apply the rules of the local church to business meetings?

   d.   Where then is the scriptural authority to exclude women from the business meetings?
   e.   Is the restriction of women from business meetings a direct commandment, implied conclusion, tradition of the NT church, or tradition of men?

3.  Do the rules governing worship in the local church apply to business meetings?
   a.   If this is so then shouldn't women be present but remain silent.

   b.   If it is not then  why cant women can be present since it is not an assembly of the saints.

4.  Is the business meeting used as a time in which we specifically come together to teach and admonish each other in the Lord?
   a.   If it is then shouldn't women be present but remain silent because it is an assembly?

   b.   If it is not then why cant women be present since it is not an assembly of the saints.

In your paper you quoted from 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 that “the women are to be silent in the church”.  
   a.   If the business meeting is a function of the church then this is your authority for women in the meetings except they must be remain silent.  Why were they told to remain silent if they were not to be there?

   b.   If the business meeting is not a function of the church then by what authority do you apply the rules of the church to the business meeting.

One that you did not use was Acts 6:2-3 where the “twelve summoned the congregation of the disciples”.
   a.   Was this congregation made up of men only, did this congregation exclude woman from this assembly?

   b.   What authority or example can anyone cite to claim it was only men present at this assembly?

Conclusion:
If you extend the ordinances that governs the church into the business meeting then you have made the business meeting a function of the local church.  Therefore if a woman cannot be present during a business meeting she is therefore forsaking the assembly and is in sin (Heb 10:25).  This belief have made the business meeting a condition for salvation.  The men of the congregation have caused the women of the congregation to sin because they are excluded.

My thoughts are this. I see and understand the necessity of having business meetings especially because we do not have elders.  There are needs of the congregation to be taken care of and someone must see to it that these things are taken care of.  I do not view having a volunteer group of men to take care of these needs as unscriptural, but yet, nor can I turn to the scriptures and find a passage that directly support or forbid this necessity.  After reviewing my position on this subject I and very hesitant to speak where the Lord has not spoken.  I am even more hesitant when I consider that we might be following a tradition that we have no idea from where it came and then we want to impose it on others as if we have direct statements commanding it.

Based on the arguments that I’ve heard and read so far here is my understanding:
You are affirming that the bible teaches that the business meetings are under the same guidance as the local church.  Therefore it is unscriptural for woman to be present at a business meeting.
What are the passage(s) that teaches closed, private, women excluded meeting!

The passages you presented thus far teaches that a woman is to remain silent in the church.   Are you affirming that the bible teaches that the business meeting is an assembly of the saints (the local church)?

I am in fear of being wrong on this subject.  I do not want to impose something on someone that the bible does not teach nor do I want to subtract from the bible what has been explicitly stated.

Sincerely seeking the Lord
Awaiting your response

Derven


Answer
Hi Derven,

I am more than willing to assist you if I am at all able to do so - you presented a large amount of information and questions so I will do my best to respond to each one in the order you presented them.

You asked:
1. In the New Testament church elders are put in place to shepherd the local congregation (Titus 1:5). Where is the scriptural reference for having the men (not elders) of the congregation meet in private to discuss things pertaining to local church?

a. Is this reference am implied conclusion, tradition of the NT church, tradition of men, or a direct statement?

As I have stated before, there is not much to guide us in situations when a local church does not have any man who meets the qualifications of an elder. So it is my understanding that congregations came up with the idea of having the men (non-elders) meet in private to discuss things pertaining to the church by implied conclusion. They understand that men have the leadership role in the church in general. Since the husband is the head of the house and women in general cannot show authority over men in regard to the church, they conclude that if there is no elders, the men of the congregation are responsible as a whole for the guidance of the local church. I do not know of any verses that speak of what to do if there are no men qualified to be elders.

You asked:
2. Is the business meeting a function (essential for salvation) of the local church?

You ask very good questions. Decisions need to be made regarding the guidance and function of any local church so they need to come up with a way that will be acceptable to God until they can get men who qualify to be elders appointed to this office. I am not sure the business meeting is a function that is essential to salvation, but it is a necessary part of the survival and function of the local church.

You asked:
a. Where is the scriptural authority for this function?

I can only point you to passages you are already aware of such as in Acts 6:2,3.

You asked:
b. If business meetings are a function of the local church, shouldn't the congregation be present as a whole at these meetings?

Some congregations do that but the men lead the meetings.

You asked:
c. If business meetings are not a function of the local church then why do you apply the rules of the local church to business meetings?

That is a good question, but I believe it to be a necessary function of the church when there are no qualified men to be elders.

You asked:
d. Where then is the scriptural authority to exclude women from the business meetings?

I don't see any authority to exclude them. That is just what some small local churches decide to do. As long as the women are not showing authority over men, I see no problem with them being in the meetings. Do you? I cannot point to any scripture to support their exclusion.

You asked:
e. Is the restriction of women from business meetings a direct commandment, implied conclusion, tradition of the NT church, or tradition of men?

I see it as an implied conclusion, but a weak one. There is no guidance one way or the other in the New Testament.

You asked:
3. Do the rules governing worship in the local church apply to business meetings?

I believe that the only thing that carries over to other functions of the local church from the worship is the leadership of men. It seems pretty clear to me that men have authority over women in all aspects of the church.

You asked:
a. If this is so then shouldn't women be present but remain silent.

I think they can be present but remain silent. Yet, that is not my decision to make for each and every local church that has no elders.

You asked:
b. If it is not then why can't women can be present since it is not an assembly of the saints.

I think women can be present...but that is my opinion.

You asked:
4. Is the business meeting used as a time in which we specifically come together to teach and admonish each other in the Lord?

I would say the answer is no.
 
You asked:
a. If it is then shouldn't women be present but remain silent because it is an assembly?

I don't believe it is, so this question would not need to be answered.

You asked:
b. If it is not then why can't women be present since it is not an assembly of the saints.

I see no reason.

You wrote:
In your paper you quoted from 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 that “the women are to be silent in the church”.  

a. If the business meeting is a function of the church then this is your authority for women in the meetings except they must be remain silent. Why were they told to remain silent if they were not to be there?

The "business meeting IS a function of the church, but it is not exactly the same in every way to our worship services. The passage in I Corinthians is regarding worship together as a local church and so women were to be present but silent. It is not specifically about a "business meeting" and we have no specific passages to guide us clearly in regard to "business meetings". But we do see the authority lies in men.

You asked:
b. If the business meeting is not a function of the church then by what authority do you apply the rules of the church to the business meeting.

It is a function of the church so this is not a question that needs my answer.


One that you did not use was Acts 6:2-3 where the twelve summoned the congregation of the disciples.

a. Was this congregation made up of men only, did this congregation exclude woman from this assembly?

I do not believe it was just men, but it was clearly the men that were addressed. Notice verse 3.

Acts 6:3 Therefore, brothers, pick out from among you seven men of good repute, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we will appoint to this duty.

You asked:
b. What authority or example can anyone cite to claim it was only men present at this assembly?

There is none.

I do not agree with your conclusion because although the "business meeting" IS a function of the church, it is not on equal footing with the worship of the local church... nor is it a condition for salvation. I do not believe that the men of the congregation have caused the women of the congregation to sin because they are excluded either.

You asked:
The passages you presented thus far teaches that a woman is to remain silent in the church. Are you affirming that the bible teaches that the business meeting is an assembly of the saints (the local church)?

I am not affirming that the Bible teaches that the business meeting is an assembly of the saints. That is because there is nothing that directly speaks of having a business meeting or how to get things done without elders in a local church. It is always an uncomfortable thing to try to determine what to do in a way that is pleasing to God when there are not VERY clear statements about it. The silence of the scriptures is troublesome indeed at times. The way I see it is there are times when we just do our best to handle situations that are not directly covered in the New Testament. Silence restricts when there is direct guidance such as singing. Something was specified.

I also seek not to bind nor loose where God has not. It is a balancing act. Yet, I am confident that God knows my intent and even if I am wrong on areas that are not clear, I am still walking in the light and will be continually cleansed by Christ's blood. I do hope that I have helped you. If you have any follow-up questions or any new questions, I will be happy to help. I am just a mere human as you are and so we all can be wrong. Keep studying God's Word. If you find something that helps clarify this topic, I am happy to learn it.

           In Christ, Joe Norman