Expert: Marvin Howard - 12/1/2010

Question
I've listened to "The Recordings of Hell" and it brought to attention a serious thought, where is Hell? Remembering the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man was (from my own memory) said to simply be "buried". Would that mean, his soul simply awoke inside of Earth; for, Lazarus was carried. If the rich man had been taken somewhere via some transpertation, wouldn't the bible had acknowledge that? I mean, it talked of the transpertation of Lazarus and how his soul was taken away from this earth, via angels. So, if the rich man wasn't carried anywhere, or taken anywhere, why would I assume he has gone somewhere away from earth? Could I conclude that the place of torture he went, while in Hades, is actually the center of earth? Until the day of judgement... Thank you.

Answer
Hi!

David, I will be happy to try explaining this to you. The first thing we must realize is we are hampered by physical things and realities when trying to explain spiritual and eternal things and realities. Since there is nothing physical in the spiritual realm (1st Corinthians 15:50), our perception is always going to be faulty until we step into the spirit world; where all will be revealed.

I actually want to separate this into two parts. First, we will explore the location of the dead and the fixed nature of the gulf. Finally, we will explore transportation.

I do understand the confusion on the location and state of the dead. The location is a translational problem, though it should not be. The state of the dead is misunderstood, and therefore often incorrectly taught, based on false ideas concerning their location.

You see, many words were not as thoroughly translated as they should have been. False doctrines were well established by the time there was an English translation (or a translation into any language for that matter). Much of it had to do with supporting these false doctrines. However, scripture has survived, as promised. Even when some words were handled this way, there is enough context to decide proper meaning, as well as our having the ability to return to the original language and definitions.

Spiritually speaking, scripture uses five different words to express locations of souls in the afterlife. The English forms of these are Hades, Paradise, Tatarus, Heaven, and Hell.

Hades (when including both Paradise and Tatarus), Hell, Tatarus, and even the physical grave are often (if not exclusively) all translated as Hell. This is complicated further, as more times than not, heaven is used to refer to the physical sky than it is to the spiritual abode of God. Even in the Greek, Hades often simply refers to the actual, physical grave. Context must decide all of these.

Briefly, Hades is the general name for both Paradise and Tatarus. To get a glimpse of these, turn in your Bible to Luke 16:19-31. It is too long to quote here. It is the story of the rich man and Lazarus.

In both Paradise and Tatarus, we are awaiting judgment. We already know where we will go, based on our temporary location. The judgment is not the declaring of innocence or guilt, for that is already decided by Jesus' blood and our obedience to Him while we have opportunity. Rather, it is the official, and infinitely just, sentencing, along with the declaration of why we receive that sentence.

Once sentence is passed, we go to either Heaven or Hell. Compare this with someone being arrested. They go to the county lock up. After their trial, if the crime was serious enough, they go to federal or state prisons later. Both are jails. Yet, one is more severe, and of a longer duration.

I am going to give you some references for each of the five, that you may compare. Except for Paradise and Tatarus, this is by no means an all inclusive list. It is merely a sampling.

HADES:

Matthew 11:23
Matthew 16:18
Luke 16:23
Acts 2:31
Revelation 20:14

PARADISE:

Luke 23:43
2nd Corinthians 12:4
Revelation 2:7

TATARUS:

2nd Peter 2:4

HEAVEN:

Matthew 23:22
Matthew 28:2
Matthew 28:18
Mark 1:11
Mark 10:21
Mark 11:25
Acts 2:2
Acts 7:55

HELL:

Matthew 5:22
Matthew 5:29
Matthew 10:28
James 3:6

I mentioned above that the judgment is sentencing. Notice the following please:

Matthew 25:31-33, "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left."

The context continues, but only to tell who went where, and why. The point is, all will be judged at the same time. There will not be one judgment for the righteous, and another for the wicked, set apart by 1,000 years.

This is further evidenced by passages such as this:

2nd Thessalonians 1:7-10, "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day."

When (at the same time) He glorifies the saints, the wicked are sent into eternal damnation. There simply are not two different, eternal judgments in scripture.

Other judgments we read about happen nation to nation. In both the Old and New Testaments, we see the same such apocalyptic language used for any of the "nation judgments."

When He speaks of His return, all that goes out the window. There will only be one sign for that. It's not a blood red moon, stars falling, or anything like that. It is simply that man will be saying, "Peace and safety." (1st Thessalonians 5:3) This is the judgment from which there will be no escape. In all of the rest, there will be some that will escape, even though the flight will be hard. Even the physical description of the land is handled differently. Instead of barren and desolate being used, "...the elements shall melt with fervent heat..." (be completely done away) according to 2nd Peter 3:10-12. It is going to be awfully hard, even for God, to do something on earth when it no longer exists.

There is no scripture substantiating both rapture and judgment together. The word rapture us not even found in scripture. Therefore, there can be no correlation between the two.

We examined above about His coming. I want you to examine with me these passages dealing with the kingdom (supposedly yet to be established until His coming), and the tribulation (which is supposed to happen after the rapture according to the doctrine).

John 18:36, "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."

Luke 9:27, "But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God."

Colossians 1:13, "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son:"

Revelation 1:9, "I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ."

In each of these, please note, the kingdom and the tribulation are already here. They are not events which are still future to us. Yet, the kingdom is supposed to come with the rapture, and the tribulation after. Both of these, according to John in the last reference above, were already in existence in the first century. Surely we cannot tell John, and Jesus who instructed him, they are mistaken or don't know about that which they are speaking.

Each time someone tries to teach the doctrine of the millineum, this is exactly what they are saying.

Jesus, Himself, flatly denied any sort of an earthly kingdom, confounding the "worldly" wisdom of men. This is much to the chagrin of many would be teachers. Follow this logically if you will.

In John 18:36, we have Jesus telling Pilate His kingdom (Greek bas-il-i'-ah - which according to the Greek Lexicon is "not to be confused with an actual kingdom, but rather the right or authority to rule over a kingdom") will not be on earth (Greek kos'-mos - try it with the English "c" in place of the "k," and you have its meaning). To put it in simpler terms, Jesus told Pilate He would not rule over His kingdom from earth, as it was a different type of kingdom: His reign will always be from heaven. Many will point to the word "now" and try to show a time contrast with the future. Not so, as the word also carries a meaning of "henceforth" indicative of "from this time, forward." (Note the last word, "hence," which demands this meaning of the word "now.")

The millineum is a work of fiction. There is one reference to a period of 1,000 years relating to Christianity.

Revelation 20:1-7, "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,"

People use this small, seven verse passage as the basis of the doctrine. There is only one way to do it. It must be lifted out of context. Please note the following:

Revelation 1:1, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:"

This is the introduction of the book. If it is not understood, the rest of the book will be misunderstood. John said Revelation was signified. This is the verb form of the word, "sign." Revelation was given in signs, or figurative language! Every millinialist (pre, pro, and mid all), whom I have encountered, understands that the beast, and other such things like it, are figurative. Yet, to fit a preconceived notion, they make this one sign (figure) literal, and they do it disregarding the introduction. It is the absolute height of fallacy.

You may consider the above a digression. If it is, it is still necessary to show the difficulty that has arisen through the ages by confusing physical with spiritual things because of human frailty.

With Jesus' denial of any form of earthly, physical rule in John 18:36 (above), the need for physically resurrected bodies is done away. Yet, refuting the need, by itself, isn't enough to refute the actuality.

1st Corinthians 15:42-44 & 50, "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

You don't want a physical body in the resurrection, for such will not get into heaven. Paul didn't want one either, and taught against it.

After physical death, the state of mankind is always spiritual, and we see in the illustration of the rich man and Lazarus that the spirits are conscious and aware of where they are and what is happening around them.

1st Peter 3:19-20, “By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

This passage speaks of Jesus, preaching by the authority of the Spirit, to those in prison. In order to fully understand the passage, one must determine to whom Jesus was speaking. Since this account mentions Noah; the majority (including many scholars) believe and teach that this was Jesus, preaching through Noah, for the 120 years prior to the flood.

Alternatively, I cannot teach this, for I see more in the context (on both ends) which points to a similar, but slightly different, audience. That Jesus preached through Noah at that time is a true statement. That 120 years lapsed is a true statement. However, I see a few dots not being connected (if you will allow me that expression) between the passages. 1st Peter 3:18 declares that this preaching was able to occur because Jesus was killed and resurrected. This had not yet happened during the days of Noah. Some maintain that this is the Hadean world. Perhaps the entire argument has never been presented to the satisfaction of those who teach differently. Perhaps I am missing something as I am only a beginning student of Greek (and self-taught at that). The expounded position is that the phrase, “which sometime,” from 1st Peter 3:20 points specifically to those alive at the flood. While this can be the case, it is not necessarily so, for there is one Greek word for the phrase, and it has multiple meanings.

ποτέ
pote
pot-eh'
From the base of G4225 and G5037; indefinite adverb, at some time, ever: - afore- (any, some-) time (-s), at length (the last), (+ n-) ever, in the old time, in time past, once, when.

This phrase also carries a possible meaning of, “in the old time,” or “in time past.” Either of these can refer to any time prior to the resurrection; for that is what is under discussion in the text beginning with verse 18. Verse 18 is the time antecedent (necessary to clarify an indefinite adverb of time) for the phrase, “which sometime;” not the time of Noah mentioned later in verse 21. This, alone, does not make either position correct, as either can be supported from a given definition. Rather, it forces one to search further into the matter.

Moreover, the term, “when,” (ὅτε - hote - hot'-eh) does not necessarily mean a specific time; but can carry the meaning of, “too,” or “also,” as well. The fact of the matter is, this prison cannot be the prison of sin that accompanies such a teaching. Here is why. There is a definite problem with interpreting the Greek term for prison as spiritual in nature but not eternal.

φυλακή
phulakē
foo-lak-ay'
From G5442; a guarding or (concretely guard), the act, the parson; figuratively the place, the condition, or (specifically) the time (as a division of day or night), literally or figuratively: - cage, hold, (im-) prison (-ment), ward, watch.

This is not speaking of the guarding that God does in relation to the obedient, righteous people. Likewise, God does not guard, cage, hold, warden, or watch sinners so that they cannot escape sin. One can escape by quitting sin and obeying. While we may voluntarily surrender our servitude to sin and be as slaves, we are not forced to remain in such a condition as would be necessitated by the word, “prison.” Therefore, this prison is not sin; regardless of the era.

Φυλακή, is used 47 times in the New Testament. Six of those times refer to a watch, such as would be kept by a security guard or police officer. The rest of the time (41 uses), it is translated as; prison, prisons, cage, hold, imprisonment, imprisonments, and ward. Of the remaining 40 (excluding 1st Peter 3:19 under question) 36 references are to literal, physical prisons. One is a barred courtyard or buffer zone between two places. The remaining 3 are in just two verses; Revelation 18:2 (both cage and hold) and Revelation 20:7 (prison). All three, spiritual prisons are the abode of Satan; not states of sin on earth. Therefore, φυλακή (translated prison in 1st Peter 3:19) is either a literal prison, a guard (either a person or construction) which prevents a breech from one state or place to another, or it is an inescapable place of torment. You acknowledge it is not literal. God does not stop a sinner from repenting and returning home. Thus, only one option for interpretation remains.

In the Greek, the trap or snare which imprisons sinners who are still alive is παγίς (pagis - pag-ece'). This is not only said to be a snare, but according to 1st Timothy 3:7 and 2nd Timothy 2:26 it is a snare of (set by) the devil; being trapped in sin. Though this escapes the attention of many, even in the church, the explanation of the majority is an attempt (even if unintended) to justify the portion of Calvin’s T.U.L.I.P. dealing with predestination. God does not select those who will not be saved and keep them in such a prison. There is only one group of people kept in such a Biblical prison. The record may be found in Luke 16:19-31.

Acts 2:22-28, “Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.”

The hell of this passage is not γέεννα (geenna - gheh'-en-nah). Rather, it is ᾅδης (hadēs - hah'-dace); “the place (state) of departed souls.” Jesus went there upon His death. This is the waiting place for the judgment, comprised of both Paradise (παράδεισος - paradeisos - par-ad'-i-sos) and Tatarus (ταρταρόω - tartaroō - tar-tar-o'-o). One half of this, ταρταρόω, is a place of inescapable torment, worthy of a spiritual application of φυλακή. This is also the location of those addressed by Christ in the days of Noah.

The preaching to prisoners, in 1st Peter 3:19, was accomplished during Christ’s death; while He was in Hades awaiting His resurrection. Those sinners of Noah’s day were present for this, but they were not the sole audience. Jesus’ Spirit preached across the fixed gulf while He was in Paradise. He confirmed the location of those in Tatarus was for just cause. Jesus proved these people were where they belonged.

The coming Judgment is to be just and right, for Jesus and salvation were prophesied, but the prophecies were ignored by those who were wicked. Jesus came to offer salvation (even to those in the past), just as Noah offered salvation, and it happens to now come through baptism (1st Peter 3:21). Jesus preached to those in prison during His three days in the grave. The people who are imprisoned by God so they may not be saved are those who died without taking advantage of the given opportunity; either past or present. These were the people addressed by Christ.

In short, this passage means (as far as I can see) that Jesus preached to people in the days of Noah in an attempt to keep them from torment by the obedience of entering the ark (further proving this in Hades), just as He preaches to us today in an attempt to keep us out of torment by obedience in baptism. In both cases He is longsuffering, but such is not without an end. In both cases, those who find themselves in torment will know why.

David, I know this has been lengthy. I promise the last point will not be so. It is really quite simple when you remove physicality from the equation. There is nothing to carry, and no place to carry. Therefore, this carrying is not a form of transportation. Rather, it is the comfort provided by the angels as we translate to our spiritual bodies. It is the comfort that remains as we rest in Abraham's bosom while we await resurrection and judgment.

I hope I put this into perspective for you where you can study further and grasp the deeper meanings of spiritual things. If you need clarification, or have something on another subject, please do not hesitate to ask.

In His Service,
Marvin Howard