Expert: Joe Norman - 3/10/2010

Question
QUESTION: Dear Mr. Norman. Holy salutations to you in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. On the above mentioned subject of mine, there are varied views as to the numerical definition of God yet the scriptures supports only one view, now whatever this view is, is another question, but i will state mine from a scriptural poit of view. Most in christianity say that Jesus is a part of the Godhead. It appears to me that the bible contradicts this view with what it declares in Col 2:9. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. What is your take on this verse of scripture? Thanks and may the Lord bless you mightily. I await your reply.

ANSWER: Hi David,

I don't see any contradiction between the belief that Jesus is a part of the Godhead and Col.2:9. But let's look at the context of the passage to gain a better understanding of what Paul is saying to the church in Colossi. The Apostle Paul has just cautioned the Colossian believers not to be taken captive by the philosophies and traditions of men which are not grounded in Christ Jesus in verse 8. We do not know for certain what the specific problem was in the church at Colossi. What is clear though is that Paul is unequivocally asserting Christ's supremacy over whatever teachings of human wisdom might take the Colossians captive.

In verse 9, Paul gives the first of two reasons why Christ is superior to any human philosophy or tradition (verse 10a contains the second):  "For" (Greek hoti with a causal sense: "because") in Christ all the fullness of Deity dwells bodily. Many versions of the Bible use the word Godhead, but both Deity and Godhead are referring to the same thing. Christ is superior to the teachings of men and the elemental "powers" of the universe because in His incarnation, every aspect of the nature of the true God - all His attributes and power are found in Christ's body a congenial and permanent home.  

This verse, perhaps more than any other verse in Paul's writing, teaches that Christ was God in the flesh. The word translated "Deity" signifies the "essence of being God" - what makes God, God (see Grammatical Analysis, below).  And it was not a mere quality or limited sub-set of attributes - for Paul tells us that "all the fullness" of Deity dwelled in Christ.  And this fullness did not merely sojourn for a time in Christ's consciousness, but rather "dwelled" there (Greek katoikeo: "to take up permanent residence").  It is a timeless present tense verb (Harris, Colossians, p. 98) - "continues to live."  And this dwelling was "bodily," in Christ's physical body.  This points to the incarnation, surely, but also to the resurrected Christ as well, who is now our mediator, the man Christ Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5). The fullness of the Godhead ... dwells ‘in the once mortal, now glorified body of Christ.

Bottom line, Christ the Head of the church. He is truly the Son of God. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1)

I pray that my answer has been of help to you. If you have new questions or a follow-up to this one, please feel free to write me. May all I do be pleasing in God's sight. God bless you in your search for truth and desire to know God's Word more accurately.

In Christian Love, Joe Norman

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Thank you Joe for such a profound explanation but I have to ask some more. On the same scripture it appears to me that what you are saying is that it is possible for Jesus to be in the Godhead and the Godhead to be in Him at the same time. If so, then more that one definition of the word Godhead will have to be realised, for if the fulness of it dwells in Him then He can't be a part of what He is the fulness of. For that to be so then there has to be more than one fulness of the Godhead. If Jesus is in the Godhead then there has to be a part of the Godhead which does not dwell in Him and which is not a part of His(Jesus') fulness. There seems to be in other words, a situation where we have a subset being a part of a set. Is there any aspect of the Godhead which does not dwell in Jesus Christ bodily? The Godhead, yes, speaks of the fulness of divine attributes, but i believe that the Godhead also incorporates offices through which God functions, eg King, redeemer, savious, Father, Son, Holyspirit etc. If there are aspects of the above which does not dwell in Jesus bodily, which trinitarians will identify to be the Father and the Holyspirit, then, in whose fulness do these offices dwell if they are not offices in the Godhead which dwells in Jesus. I break at this point and await your response. The Lord bless you richly.

ANSWER: Hi again David,

I must tell you that you perplex me. I am not sure if it is because I don't understand what you are trying to say or if it is just that what you say doesn't compute in my mind. It seems to me you are caught up in semantics and confused by them. Sometimes when words are translated into other languages, it is not easy for us to determine the original meaning. I don't see that as a flaw of God's Word but rather a short-coming of imperfect mankind.

Let me see if I can help you to understand better. According to some, there are three parts that make up a man...his physical body, his soul, and his spirit. They determine that there is a difference between a soul and a spirit based mainly on two passages of New Testament scripture.

1 Thes.5:23  Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Heb.4:12  For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

It is undeniable that there must be both a soul and a spirit within the physical body of man if these passages are true and they are because these are from God. So now I ask you, if you are made up of three parts how can you be fully yourself? It is a rhetorical question. The physical body is a vessel to contain our soul and spirit. In regard to Jesus, why do you not think it is possible for there to be God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit all within the physical body of Jesus? The complexity of God being three persons in one God is too great for any human mind to fully comprehend, but too much in the New Testament reveals the doctrine of the "trinity" is correct.

You lost me too with your discussion of offices. Col.2:9 doesn't teach that all the offices of every person of God dwell within Jesus. The point as I made clear to you was that Jesus had all authority and was far superior to any man-made philosophy or tradition. Each person of God has a different role or office, but that doesn't mean the fullness of the Godhead could not possibly dwell within Jesus' body and Jesus still be Himself. It seems you are trying to limit God to a human understanding. God is far too amazing and complex for anyone to fully comprehend. I do hope I have helped you though in some way to better understand and see that there is no contradiction or conflict in God's Word.

In Christian Love, Joe Norman

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QUESTION: Thanks sir for our timely response. Now, I hope that I am not understanding you to infer that 3 persons were there resident in the body of Jesus Christ. I understand God dwelling in Jesus to mean the incarnation of God in flesh or as a huamn being. How do you diffetiate 1Tim 3:16 from St. John 14. The former says, God was manifest in the flesh, while the other syas, the Father dwells in Him. Now while it is true that body soul and spirit is what makes up a human being he is still one person, but the trinity says that Father Son and Holyspirit are three persons, and i hope i am not understanding you to mean that all 3 were esident in the body of Jesus, for at his death that would be 3 calvaries. In my next reply to you I will show why i believe that the office of the Sonship of Jesus started in time in the womb of Mary, and that is, as the Son of God, for we both believe already that as the Son of man he has a beginning. I will also get into the generation of Jesus Christ to prove that He is the Father who incarnated himself in a human body. The Lord bless you mightily. Pray for me as I do the same for you.

Answer
Hi again David,

It may be helpful for you to re-examine my first answer where I explained Col.2:9 to you. I basically stated that the meaning of that verse was to show Jesus had ALL AUTHORITY. He was completely superior to any phylosophies of man or traditions of man. Christ was sent to earth in human form and He lacked nothing in authority and power. He was equal to God the Father and God the Spirit. They are one God. Is it possible for all three persons to have been dwelling within the physical body of Jesus? Yes. Do we know for sure if this was the case? No. We do know that Jesus said the Father dwelled within Him. But only because Jesus said exactly that.

Please explain to me what you mean by God dwelling in Jesus to mean the incarnation of God in the flesh or as a human being. Yes it is true that although there are body, soul, and spirit to make up one human person. It is also true that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit are ONE GOD but three persons. No, I did not say nor do I believe all three were within the physical body of Jesus at His death...why else would Jesus have yelled at the top of His voice..."My God My God...why have you forsaken me?"

Please understand something David. This website is nor designed to be a place for debate. If you wish to debate me on the doctrine of the trinity, you can email me directly at joetenor1066@gmail.com - but this is not the place to debate and as it stands so far, you are not convincing me I am in error. In fact, your statement that Jesus was merely God the Father who incarnated Himself in a human body can easily be refuted.

There are many obvious indications of distinction between the Father, the Son, and the Spirit in the New Testament. For instance, there is the clear case of the baptismal scene of Christ, where Jesus is in the water, the Father is speaking from heaven, and the Spirit is descending as a dove (Matthew 3:16-17).

Then there is Matthew’s record of the “great commission” where baptism is “into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19). The term “name” (Greek onoma) stands for becoming the possession of, and under the protection of, the one into whose name an individual is immersed (Arndt and Gingrich 1967, 575), and its singular form here likely stresses the unity of the holy Three. The multiple use of the article “the” before the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, however, according to a well-known rule of Greek grammar (Dana and Mantey 1955, 147), plainly demonstrates that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are separate persons, and not merely three manifestations of one person (Warfield 1952, 42).

There are other New Testament evidences revealing a distinction between the divine persons of the holy Godhead:

(1) Christ is said to be a “mediator” between God and man (1 Timothy 2:5). The word “mediator” translates the Greek mesites (from mesos, “middle,” and eimi, “to go”), and so literally, a go-between. Arndt and Gingrich note that the term is used of “one who mediates between two parties to remove a disagreement or reach a common goal. Of Christ with the genitive of persons between whom he mediates . . .” (508). Clearly, Christ cannot be a mediator between God and man if he is the totality of the holy Godhead.

(2) In John 8:16-17, the Lord cited the Old Testament principle of multiple witnesses for legal documentation. He is countering the Pharisaic allegation that his witness is not true (v. 13). He reasons, therefore, that just as the law requires at least two witnesses to establish credibility, so the Lord is “not alone”; he bears witness of himself, and the Father bears witness of him. If Jesus is the same person as the Father, his argument makes no sense!

(3) Christ once taught: “I am the vine, and my Father is the husbandman” (John 15:1). In the same allegory he identified the disciples as “branches.” The narrative thus has three principal features: husbandman (the Father), vine (the Son), and branches (disciples). It is not difficult to see that there is as much distinction between the husbandman and the vine as there is between the vine and the branches.

(4) “But of that day nor that hour knows no one, not even the angels in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father” (Mark 13:32). While Jesus was upon the earth, he knew not the time of the judgment day. The Father, however, did know! Thus, clearly the Father and the Son were not the same person. Similarly, “And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him” (Matthew 12:32). The contrast here between the Son and the Holy Spirit plainly shows that they are not identical in personality. These two arguments make it certain that Christ was neither the Father nor the Spirit.

(5) In speaking of Christ’s subordination to God, Paul says: “[T]he head of Christ is God” (1 Corinthians 11:3). Edward Robinson noted the use of “head” (Greek kephale): “Trop. of persons, i.e., the head, the chief, one to whom others are subordinate” (1855, 398). Would it make any sense to speak of one being head of himself?

(6) Jesus is said to be “the very image” of the Father’s substance (Hebrews 1:3). Of the word “image” (Greek charakter), W. E. Vine observed:

In the New Testament it is used metaphorically in Heb. 1:3, of the Son of God as ‘the very image (marg. – the impress) of His substance,’ RV. The phrase expresses the fact that the Son is both personally distinct from, and yet literally equal to Him of whose essence He is the adequate imprint (1940, 247).

(7) The following passages contain contrasts which reveal a distinction between the Father and the Son:

•Christ did not seek his own will, but the will of his Father (John 5:30).
•His teaching was not his, but the Father’s (John 7:16).
•He came not of himself, but was sent of the Father (John 7:28; 8:42).
•He glorified him (John 8:54).
•The Father does not judge, but has given judgment unto the Son (John 5:22).
(8) The Jews had neither heard the Father’s voice, nor seen his form at any time (John 5:37; cf. 1:18). But they had both seen and heard Christ. Hence, he was not the same person as the Father.

(9) There are many grammatical forms which show the distinction between the persons of the Godhead. In addition to plural pronouns (e.g., “our,” “we,” “us” [John 14:23; 17:11, 21]), prepositions frequently function in this capacity. The Spirit is sent from the Father (John 15:26). In the beginning Christ was with (Greek pros) God (John 1:1). He spoke the things which he had seen with (Greek para) him (John 8:38), and he came forth from the Father (John 16:27). All created things are of the Father, and through Christ (1 Corinthians 8:6). Through Christ we have access in the Spirit unto the Father (Ephesians 2:18).

Conjunctions can also indicate a distinction. He that abides in the teaching of Christ has both the Father and the Son (2 John 9). Jesus rebuked the Jews: “Ye know neither me, nor my Father: if ye knew me, ye would know my Father also [Greek @kai@–-as an adverb]” (John 8:19). Comparative terms reveal distinction. Though Christ did not hold onto his equality with God (Philippians 2:6)–-in terms of the independent exercise of divine privileges–-nonetheless, in essence he was equal with God (John 5:18). In Christ’s subordinate position, though, the Father was greater than he (John 14:28).

(10) Many verbal forms indicate that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are separate in personality. The Father sent the Son (John 7:29), and the Son sent the Spirit (John 15:26). The Father loves the Son (John 3:35) and abides in him (John 14:10). The Father gave the Son (John 3:16), exalted him (Philippians 2:9), and delivered all things unto him (Matthew 11:27). Jesus commended his spirit into the Father’s hands (Luke 23:46) and ascended unto him (John 20:17). The Bible contains many such expressions which are meaningless if the Father, Son, and Spirit are the same person.

If I were so disposed, not only could I introduce a number of additional biblical arguments, but I could also show that the writers of the first several centuries of the post-apostolic age were virtually one in affirming that the Godhead consists of three separate, divine persons. Concerning the matter of their being three persons in the Trinity, A. C. Cox wrote: “Evidences, therefore, are abundant and archaic indeed, to prove that the Ante-Nicean Fathers, with those of the Nicean and the Post-Nicean periods, were of one mind, and virtually of one voice” (1855, 49).

Again, if you wish to continue debate, I prefer you write to me directly and not continue it here. Thank you and I hope this has helped you. I pray for you and am happy to know you pray for me as well. To God be the glory.