Expert: John Fields - 7/16/2010

Question
My first question is does the Church of Christ not believe in the Rapture or as the KJV puts it "Caught up?" And it not why?  My second question is...Why do they think they are the only one's going to Heaven?  Isn't that Judging?  Third question...why do they believe you can lose your Salvation? Jesus said this....John 6:40 "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:47 "I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life."

John 10:28-30 "I give [my followers] eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

John 11:25 "Jesus said to her, 'I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die...'"
It doesn't say if you only go to Church of Christ you will be saved... it say's Whoever believes in him shall have eternal life.  Those who believe and follow him were given to him by the FATHER, so why would he condemn all other followers other than COC believers. I was raised in COC but now that I'm older and understand the Bible a lot better, I don't agree with COC's beliefs.  I am a Christian and I have basically quit going to Church because, all they want to do is preach on the good stuff and make you feel good, and want preach about HELL and how we should fear God, and how we are in the last days.  Seems to me they need to be preaching on just how close we are to meeting our Creator and better be getting prepared.  Churches are so afraid they are going to offend someone this day's if they preach on Hell.  Well, I would much rather tell people just how real Hell is and how awful it will be if they don't accept Christ, than to just sit back and not say anything and people go on being deceived. I for one believe in the Rapture, I love the Lord with all my heart and soul, I know that I am saved and I know I am going to be with Jesus real soon.  Sorry about being so long winded, just need some answers on these topics.  Thank you so much for your time and God Bless You!!

Answer
You have several interesting questions. Concerning the Rapture, I am what you would call non-committal. I personally don't believe there is enough in scripture to justify it but don't believe its right to have the bible guns blazing on an issue that does not matter that much. If there is one, I know I'll be one of the ones taken because of His faithfulness to me so I'm not worried.

Concerning the three main passages I've seen used Matthew 24:36-41, Luke 17:24-36 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 I will address each as briefly as possible.

First, know that many honest and scholarly people are in lack of agreement on what is being talked about in the Matthew and Luke passages. Jesus disciples asked three questions: When will these things happen; what will be the sign of your coming; and the end of the age? There is overlapping and it is not agreed upon which subjects He is talking about when. So we try to fit the puzzle together the best we can and be humble enough to acknowledge we could be wrong about where we have fit the pieces.

Next, if you look at the Matthew 24 passage first it seems to say something that it really doesn't. We find this out when we look at the Luke passage which is talking about the same thing but in a different way.

Matthew 24:36-41 (36) "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37 "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38 "For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 "Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. 41 "Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.

This certainly looks like the Last Day when Jesus comes back, the end times. Jesus says it will be like the previous end time, in Noah's era. That makes it further seem like Jesus is talking about a time in front of those of us alive today. This makes it look like Jesus will come and take a man in the field and a lady at the grinding mill and leave one of each behind.

But here is why I DON'T think He was talking about the end but was instead talking about Jerusalem falling. Bear in mind that He had just started this analogy by talking about Noah. How were those saved in Noah's day and others destroyed (with NO hope unlike the Rapture scenario)? Eight were taken while the rest were left behind. Those taken were delivered, those left behind were destroyed. Jesus may be saying here that when Jerusalem Falls (which IS one of the questions He is answering), His people had better be very alert or they would be destroyed when it fell. He could be telling them to be alert so they will escape that punishment. Thus, one will be taken (like Noah's crew) to safety, the other will be left (to be destroyed). The Luke passage to me is the clincher for my belief that this is so.

Luke 17:24-36 (24) "For just like the lightning, when it flashes out of one part of the sky, shines to the other part of the sky, so will the Son of Man be in His day. 25 "But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. 26 "And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 "It was the same as happened in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building; 29 but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 "It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed. 31 "On that day, the one who is on the housetop and whose goods are in the house must not go down to take them out; and likewise the one who is in the field must not turn back. 32 "Remember Lot's wife. 33 "Whoever seeks to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 "I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 "There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken and the other will be left. 36 ["Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left."]

Notice in this Luke passage that Jesus spells out that the flood destroyed those who had been "Left Behind", there would be no future redemption. Jesus also uses the analogy of Lot and his family. Lot and his daughters were saved because he went as God had told him to. Lot's wife, who had been traveling behind him and was not moving quickly enough was destroyed along with Sodom. Notice there was no future redemption for those who had stayed behind, only certain and swift destruction. Jesus is giving a warning. He tells the one on the housetop not to go back for the goods in his house. Jesus even says, "Remember Lot's wife." This ties together better with the Fall of Jerusalem than His Second Coming. Jesus also says that one will be taken and the other left. Notice that this is AFTER He had talked about the one who should not go back for his household goods and that Lot's wife should be remembered. The context is a warning to escape destruction. It does not fit a group being taken to heaven and another left behind for future possible redemption.

That leaves the passage in Thessalonians.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (13) But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Paul says here that God's people should not grieve like those who were hopeless. Among others, there was a group who were preaching and teaching against any resurrection. When Paul says God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep, I don't think it means that He would bring them when Jesus came from above. It means that God would bring them back from the grave by resurrection like Jesus. God BROUGHT Jesus out of the grave to Himself through Him coming back from the grave and then ascending. Similarly, this is saying that God will bring those who have died in Christ back from the dead and that they ALSO will ascend to God but that Jesus would be there to meet them in the air.

The trumpet will sound and the dead in Christ will rise and be changed first and THEN those who are alive will be changed moments after. The dead in Christ will be as it were "first in line."

How could this be referring to a rapture in light of the following: Matthew 24:30-31 (30) "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory. 31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

When the trumpet blows His elect will be gathered. But prior to this it says that ALL the tribes will see Jesus BEFORE the elect will be gathered. Does this gel with a secret taking of these redeemed? This is also shown in Revelation 1:7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

Pay very close attention also to what is said in 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 (50) Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

When are the redeemed changed? It says that all will not die but that ALL will be changed AT the last trumpet. The dead will be changed and the rest of us who are alive will then be changed at the same event. Thus ALL being changed is inclusive of living and dead and the point in time when ALL are changed is at the trumpet. Does that sound like the dead precede us into Heaven and return with Jesus to pick up the living later?

Now concerning the rest. There are a lot of extremes out there in the religious world and the churches of Christ are not immune to this either. Many within a number of different denominations think it does not matter where you go to church or how you worship God and there is another extreme which believes that only a select few are going to go there (defined by where they go and what name they keep). Neither is correct.

There are groups who don't believe that the resurrection of Jesus took place, or that any miracles really occurred, or that we can all become gods someday of we live good enough lives. Are these groups that a true believer in Christ and His resurrection could become a part of? No they are not. So we would be in agreement that a line can and must be drawn somewhere. MANY of the groups out there proposing they are Christians are NOT the real deal. They are NOT believers and are not a part of His church.

So how do you define the group that encompasses the saved/redeemed? That brings us to the opposite group. There are those who define the lines too narrowly and using the wrong standard. Many, mostly from among the older generation in times past, have defined the church as the group that has a specific name on the outside of the building and can only be said to be faithful if they are properly observing Jesus' Law. If you define the church of Christ as the group of legalists that practices works salvation to get to Heaven and believes the church of Christ is defined by this and the sign outside the building that says Church of Christ then I agree that these do not encompass the saved and it is NOT exclusive.

But let's define this church the way Jesus does. If we define the church as that group of people which is regenerated by coming to Jesus in faith by having passively received God's gift of forgiveness at the time of baptism we have defined it correctly. [This is another discussion, but many have falsely thought of baptism as a work done to be saved. Of course we are not saved by works are we? In fact Titus 3:5 says that baptism is God's work to save us not our work to save ourselves.]

Those who have false beliefs are a part of this church. Those who are sinful in many ways are a part of this church. Those who are displeasing to God in many ways are a part of this church. Ironically, many of those who exclusively believe that you can only be saved if you belong to the church with the sign outside and the appropriate works based system are NOT a part of Christ's true church! They are basically in apostasy.

Here is the explanation. God says in Galatians 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. This means that if we are trying to get to Heaven via the check-list of laws that we will be lost. Why? James 2:10 explains: "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all." If you seek to be justified by law-keeping you have SPIT on Jesus and said that what He did for you is not good enough. We do not work TO BE saved. We work BECAUSE we are saved.

Concerning the church of Christ, in point of fact there is only ONE church. Ephesians 4:4 says there is ONE body. Paul states in Colossians 1:24 "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions." So if there is one body and the body is the church there is only ONE church. But we must not define it falsely. It is not the group that has been bought and seeks to stay bought by trying to keep law to remain saved. That one church is ANY group which preaches how to get into a blood bought relationship with Jesus according to His Word. That group will consist of individuals who have been regenerated through personal faith but who need to get out of some "church" congregations that are not actually a part of this church(some examples of their beliefs above). It also consists of congregations which may be wrong on some important and key issues but are YET a part of this one body by faithful dependence and love of Jesus.

As to your points about once saved always saved the scriptures you quoted are all true IF they are the current status of those who have been saved. The one saved by faith will and MUST keep on believing and keep on following.

There are countless examples to show that one can lose their salvation if they turn away from Jesus.

Galatians 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

How can you be severed from a thing you were never a part of or fall from a point you never reached?

Romans 11:17-22 (17) But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Branches of the vine (Jesus is the root AND the vine) were broken off. Jesus is where salvation is. If you are broken off from Him you are lost (and you CAN be broken off).

Hebrews 10:26-29 (26) For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Don't you agree that the inspired writer of Hebrews was saved? He said if WE continue sinning willfully (the sin appeared to be willfully setting aside Jesus by avoiding the assembly) there NO LONGER remains a sacrifice for sins. The writer put himself forward as someone who could be lost if he himself was personally guilty of this sin. Does this sound like a person who had never been saved to begin with or who believed he could not lose his salvation?

Revelation 3:1-6 (1) "To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: 'I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 'Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God. 3 'So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you. 4 'But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. 6 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'

This chapter starts by saying it is a message to the church and the passage ends by saying that it is a message to the church. Who is the church? It is those redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ. These are the saved. Now, whose name is written in the book of life? Is it the saved or the lost? It is the saved. In verse 5 it talks about the possibility of one's name being erased from the book of life. If we cannot lose our salvation how can there be any mention of the mere possibility of having our name erased from the book of life. The fact that it is mentioned as a possibility shows that it is possible to happen.

Those things said, I KNOW I am saved. I mess up terribly, sometimes procrastinate, occasionally have lustful thoughts, and say things I should not and don't say things I should. I fall short in MANY MANY ways. I also don't think that I am right about everything I believe. Yet I am saved. Why? I am saved because of Jesus' perfection being given to me as a free gift from His cross to my life. I accept that gift in EXTREME gratitude and seek to give back to Him in service and love NOT trying to be good enough to earn it. Jesus did not die for me because I'm an alright guy. He died because I am a TERRIBLE person. I make no bones about it. I could not earn my way out of a paper bag much less into Heaven. Praise be to God above for the precious gift of His Son.

By the way, whatever the church of Christ used to be, more people believe the way I do on grace, salvation and works than do not. I hope this helps. God bless you as you seek to do His will. But please, get back to going to a church that holds Jesus as Lord and works in gratitude of salvation while obeying the Gospel as written in scripture.