Expert: Ernie Laurence, Jr. - 2/21/2011

Question
QUESTION: Hello Ernie

I am seeking fellowship and committed believers. I have a Christian website and receive several emails. Up until now I had been sending them the below letter with a subject of “Does prayer make a noticeable difference?” along with a covering letter in reply to theirs. However, recently I thought I would be better off instead sending them the new shorter email below with a subject of "Supernaturally led believers with powerful prayers"  in addition to my covering letter.

In the old email with a subject of “Does prayer make a noticeable difference?”, I wrote some contentious points. I thought if I did not put these in this new email then more people may be willing to share the letter. However, my points about deception are very important so I have added them to another letter I drafted that I plan to send people soon after they reply to the first new email. Do you think two separate letters would be a better idea as it could encourage more people to at least share the first letter which would be shorter than the letter with a subject of “Does prayer make a noticeable difference?”?

Which of the below two letters would be best to send people initially?

I am also seeking your feedback on any changes that I could make to the letters. Any suggestions that could help encourage more people to read or share them would be appreciated.

Please see the two alternative letters below

Your help would be appreciated
Regards Richard.


Supernaturally led believers with powerful prayers

Hello

Please share this letter that could help a lot of people.

Do you know of anyone whose prayers consistently make a noticeable and measurable difference as explained below and at http://www.truechristianity.com ?  If we could find these supernaturally led believers, they could help and encourage people and lead many to the truth.

The apostles' prayers had a powerful effect that could not be explained by chance. The Bible indicates that this should also be the case for people today who obey God and teach the truth. So it would be very worthwhile to search for people whose prayers make a noticeable difference because it is very likely they will be the ones teaching the truth on the many contentious doctrines.

Evidence that someone is led by God would be if they consistently make the correct decisions and can find what they need. God must be the main focus. However we still need believers who are led by God for fellowship and encouragement. The benefits of finding them would be enormous as they would not only lead us to the truth and encourage us, but they could also work with us and pray for us so that the strongholds on our lives could be broken in order to ease the relentless frustrating problems that prevent us from helping others.

Please see scriptural references and more information on my website at http://www.truechristianity.com

It would be appreciated if you could help by sharing this letter with those that could be interested. If possible, I would also like you to help do a web search for those that claim to be supernaturally led by God. Then we could contact them and send them my letter so that we can invite them to visit and pray for us. Please encourage others to search and share my letter.

It could also be an idea to put either this or a similar letter in your local newspaper. I also have a shorter advertisement. Please let me know if you are able to do this first.

I would like your feedback and am willing to make changes to what I write based on your suggestions. Do you have any suggestions on what would encourage more people to read or share this letter?

If possible, please let me know if you share this letter because I have some suggestions that could help gain peoples' interest. When you share it, it could help if you write a short note above my letter stating something like “Hi, I received an interesting letter below that is well worth reading. Regards . . .”

Your help would be appreciated
Regards Richard


Does Prayer Make a Noticeable Difference?

Hi

We are seeking people to help us to search for those who are obviously led and helped by God, as described below. If we can find divinely led people whose prayers make a noticeable difference, the benefits would be enormous. They could pray for those that we love, so that God would help them. Those who are led by God would be able to help, encourage and pray for us. They could teach us the truth in the contentious issues so that we could effectively serve God. Then God would hopefully help us, so that there would be fewer disappointments. We would then be able to achieve more successful results and be of greater assistance to others. Those close to God should be able to pray for us so that strongholds that hold us back and prevent us obeying and being close to God could then be broken.

God must be the main focus. However, fellowship, guidance and prayer from godly people is important. The Apostles taught the truth to the lost.
The Bible promises blessings and answered prayer for those who obey God, and curses for those who disobey. Therefore, the people who are truly doing God’s will and teaching the truth should receive more help from God than the ungodly, so that the result cannot be explained naturally or by chance. Their lives should not resemble those under the curse, who receive chaos without obvious purpose. The righteous should have obvious help from God in practical ways, such as remembering and comprehending things, making the correct decisions, finding what they need and supernatural healing. They should also have less frustrating problems, such as, inconveniences, accidents and losing things. The righteous should also make fewer mistakes than those not led by God. The Bible still promises trials and persecution for the righteous but, unlike the ungodly, there should be a positive purpose in their lives, as Rom 8:28 states; “. . .all things work together for good to them that love God . . .“
Do you know anyone who is obviously supernaturally led and helped by God in practical ways as described above?

Many people claim that their desirable outcomes were due to prayer, but desirable outcomes naturally happen to the ungodly. Therefore desirable outcomes by themselves are not enough evidence that God is working in people’s lives. Evidence should be a greater percentage of desirable outcomes or answered prayers in the lives of those claiming to be led by God, compared to the lives of those who are not truly born again. The Bible indicates that there are many people whom God does not know (Luke 13:27) and that a very small percentage are saved today. It states that the majority are deceived. People imagine that they have a relationship with God and are led by Him when they are not. This is obvious because many are led into error and disagreement when they claim to be led by God. It is in the Devil’s interest to deceive people that they are saved when they are not, so that they will not search for and find the truth.

I am seeking the truth and have a website at http://www.truechristianity.com which contains scripture references and suppressed truth, vital to know but not currently taught. There are also other websites linked with new ideas and rare information. They include community groups, solutions to help people, inventions and much more.


Could you please share this letter as it may help us and a lot of other people enormously.
If you plan to share this letter with a significant number of people, I prefer that you contact me first at  . This is because it is best that I send you the original letter which will look more professional than just forwarding this on.

The letter can be simply forwarded on if you prefer.  However, I thought that it may be better for people to copy and paste the letter into a new email and perhaps write a short note above it stating something like “Hi, I received an interesting letter below that is well worth reading. Regards . . ..”
   It is best to use the same subject which is “Does Prayer Make a Noticeable Difference?”.
   Some people do not receive or open forwarded emails so I thought that this could be a better idea. Please let me know if you plan to send the email to a significant number of people, and of any responses that you get. If you have an idea of a better subject or method, please let me know.

Sponsors are also needed to place similar letters to this as advertisements in newspapers.

On the ad it would also be best to list a phone number that is local to the area where the newspaper is distributed. All people would have to do is simply take calls and get the contacts of people who are obviously led by God or of those that are interested in helping with the search. If you or anyone you know can help, please contact me.
I am willing to negotiate certain changes to satisfy people who can help with promotion. Please contact me if you can help in the search. Richard Hole, 9 Leonard St, Tolga 4882, Australia.
Ph. + 617 40 955 447.  Email contact is preferred.

Any comments on the websites linked to http://www.truechristianity.com will be appreciated.

Your help is appreciated
Regards Richard

ANSWER: Hey Richard,

To be perfectly straightforward (which if you have read any of my past answers you know that's all I am), I do not believe that God works through men or leads them through supernatural means today.  The physical indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the miracles during the first century had a specific purpose, to reveal the New Testament to mankind and to confirm that message spoken by those inspired.  (John 20:30-31; Mark 16:20; Heb. 2:4; and 1 Cor. 13:8-13).

Very specifically 1 Cor. 13 talks about the limited time period of miracles.  Paul there compares them to children's toys.  The church was in its infancy and needed those miracles because it only had the Word partially delivered.  Prophecy, Miraculous Knowledge, Tongues...those (as representatives of all miracles) are means of communicating God's Will.  They are called partial or incomplete.  The complete or perfect is of the same type but without the limitations.  Paul taught that when that [means of communication of God's Will] which is complete is come, then that which is incomplete [Prophecy, Miraculous Knowledge, and Tongues] would pass away.  The last book of the Bible was written just before the end of the 1st century (Jude 3 - the faith is once and for all delivered to the Christians).  Thus there was no more need for miracles.

We know that miracles came by the laying on of the Apostles hands (Acts 8:18) which bestowed the physical indwelling of the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:16-18).  There are no more Apostles alive today, therefore no more laying on of hands, and no more passing on of miracles.  Cornelius, the one exception, was given the indwelling directly for a very specific and stated purpose, to show that God, not the Apostles, accepted the Gentiles as part of Christ's church.

The premise of your letters are based on two flawed premises.  The first is that God still supernaturally leads and works through men today, which the Bible teaches is not so.  The second is that of looking at answered prayers.  You stated:

~~~~Many people claim that their desirable outcomes were due to prayer, but desirable outcomes naturally happen to the ungodly. Therefore desirable outcomes by themselves are not enough evidence that God is working in people’s lives. Evidence should be a greater percentage of desirable outcomes or answered prayers in the lives of those claiming to be led by God, compared to the lives of those who are not truly born again.~~~~

But this is an arbitrary standard.  What defines "more" or "a greater percentage"?  What defines a "desirable outcome"?  The truth is, we know people are faithful Christians by judging their works, not the supposed rewards they receive from God.  Many people are faithful Christians who live in misery and tribulation their entire lives and who die martyrs.  By your standard, they are not faithful Christians because they never even got a break!  How many times does God answer "no" or "not yet"?  I may desire $300,000 dollars to pay off all my debts so my wife can stay home and raise my 15 month old twins...but that desire has not been fulfilled.  Should I conclude that I am not a faithful Christian?

For those who still believe that God works by supernatural methods in and through men today, I would challenge them to offer proof.  I don't seek a sign to believe in God as I already believe in Him, to the extent that nothing would be capable of convincing me otherwise.  All I needed for that convincing was the Bible and constant study (2 Tim. 2:15; 3:16-17).  I challenge them to offer proof because I know they cannot and to expose them, either to themselves or to others, as either misguided or false teachers.

I know this is likely not the answer you desired, but it is often the case that we need to here a loving and firm "no" to our requests.

In Truth and Love,

Ernie

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hi Ernie

Thanks for your letter.

Many places in the Bible indicate that the signs, blessing and answered prayers are for those who believe. There is no CLEAR verse that says it is only for the apostles. The Bible talks about how God would work in the lives of the believers and help His chosen people. The Bible says He has done this and will do it to all His chosen people so why should He stop and abandon the people who He truly knows at the end of the apostles time? I know there are many counterfeit claims but there may also be many genuine claims.

Unlike today, supernatural activity consistently occurred all through the Bible. The Bible did not say that it would stop. It would cease at certain times or places, but this is not saying that it will not be occurring anywhere in the world. The scripture at 1Cor 13:8 probably indicates that gifts will cease or fail in churches because they are disobeying God.

There are many scriptures indicating that the gifts and answered prayers will continue to occur for those who obey God. God has always promised to help those who obey him. You can see many of them on the full report at http://www.truechristianity.com/christian/salvationbfull.htm
We need to examine all the scriptures and not just take one out of context. You also need to remember that the Bible says that the mainstream church today is lukewarm, deceived and will be rejected by God.
Did you read the full report at http://www.truechristianity.com/christian/salvationbfull.htm or any of it yet? The summary does not contain many scripture references, but the full report does.

Which of the two letters I sent before do you think is better to send people initially? Would the one with a subject of
"Supernaturally led believers with powerful prayers"  be better than the one with a subject of
“Does prayer make a noticeable difference?”

Your help is appreciated
Regards Richard

Answer
Richard,

I've cut and pasted your response so to keep clear what I'm responding to.

~~~~Many places in the Bible indicate that the signs, blessing and answered prayers are for those who believe. There is no CLEAR verse that says it is only for the apostles. The Bible talks about how God would work in the lives of the believers and help His chosen people.~~~~

Absolutely.  And we see this throughout the New Testament.  Whomever the Apostles laid their hands on received the Holy Spirit and thus the ability to do miracles.  Miracles were not for just the Apostles but the whole church.

However, they had a purpose, to confirm the revelation of the NT to man.  Once the NT was fully delivered (Jude 3) there was nothing left to confirm and the miracles were no longer needed for the stated purpose.  They ended naturally when the last person the last apostle laid their hands on died.  It was then time to put away the "childish things" for the church was no longer in its infancy. (1 Cor 13:8-13)

~~~~The Bible says He has done this and will do it to all His chosen people so why should He stop and abandon the people who He truly knows at the end of the apostles time? I know there are many counterfeit claims but there may also be many genuine claims.~~~~

The first question one might consider emotional or "loaded".  God no where promised that miracles would stick around for all time.  Neither is the end of miracles an "abandonement" by God.  He has left us with something much better, the Word itself.  It is the power of God unto salvation (Rom. 1:16; James 1:21), not miracles.  Miracles do not generate faith in God, the Word of God does (Rom. 10:17).  The miracles only confirmed what was being taught as from God (John 20:30-31; Mark 16:20; Heb. 2:4).

There are no genuine claims today.  Again, I would offer the challenge to anyone to prove that statement wrong.

~~~~Unlike today, supernatural activity consistently occurred all through the Bible.~~~~

Agreed.

~~~~The Bible did not say that it would stop. It would cease at certain times or places, but this is not saying that it will not be occurring anywhere in the world. The scripture at 1Cor 13:8 probably indicates that gifts will cease or fail in churches because they are disobeying God.~~~~

This is a matter of eisegesis, a reading of meaning into the scriptures.  Paul gives the reason for them ceasing, the arrival of "that which is complete".  The representative miracles are prophecy, tongues, and miraculous knowledge which were all incomplete forms of communicating God's will.  The Bible itself is the complete form (2 Tim. 3:16-17) and thoroughly furnishes us.  When the Bible came, the miracles ceased.  Any other reason (such as the one you gave above) is not given by scripture and must be added to the Word of God.

~~~~There are many scriptures indicating that the gifts and answered prayers will continue to occur for those who obey God.~~~~

Cite one.

~~~~God has always promised to help those who obey him.~~~~

Yes, but God helps through Providence (natural methods) as well as He can through Miracles (supernatural methods).  Why do we need miracles today?  Their purpose as stated by scripture has been fulfilled?  What do they supply that the Bible is incapable of supplying?

~~~~We need to examine all the scriptures and not just take one out of context.~~~~

Which verse have I used out of context?  Please state that verse and how it has been used out of context?

~~~~You also need to remember that the Bible says that the mainstream church today is lukewarm, deceived and will be rejected by God.~~~~

The Bible nowhere says any such thing.  The only congregation of the Lord's church that was condemned for lukewarmness was the church at Laodicea (Rev. 3:14-16).

~~~Did you read the full report at http://www.truechristianity.com/christian/salvationbfull.htm or any of it yet? The summary does not contain many scripture references, but the full report does.~~~~

Yes.  And it contains a host of error (especially about Revelation...a book I know very well) that I do not have the space to respond to in whole here.  If there is a specific section you would like me to respond to, ask and I will respond.

~~~~Which of the two letters I sent before do you think is better to send people initially? Would the one with a subject of
"Supernaturally led believers with powerful prayers"  be better than the one with a subject of
“Does prayer make a noticeable difference?”~~~~

Neither.  They both contain error and are based on false premises.  I do not support anything that contains error.

In Truth and Love,

Ernie