Expert: John Fields - 4/8/2011

Question
QUESTION: First off, welcome to AllExperts. :)

*Please note that ALL CAPS is for emphasis, not yelling.

What do you believe the second half of Matthew 24 and 25 are talking about?  

In that regard I have two specific questions:

1) In the days of Noah and Lot, who was taken from the Earth and who was left on the Earth?

2) Matt. 24:37-39 says: "But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.  For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,  And knew not until the flood came, and TOOK THEM ALL AWAY; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

Luke 17:26-27 says: "And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.  They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and DESTROYED THEM ALL."

Does Jesus teach in the Olivet Discourse that those who would be taken are those who would be destroyed and those who were "left behind" are the righteous?

Thanks!

ANSWER: I appreciate your questions. When the disciples asked Jesus the question that this part of the discourse was addressing, they asked Him three things.

Matthew 24:3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

There is MUCH debate on which parts of Jesus' answers are touching on each of the things asked. It can definitely be confusing and anyone who approaches it must approach it with humility.

The three things asked are: 1) When will the temple fall? 2) What is the sign of Jesus' coming again? 3) What is the sign of the end of the age?

It is evident in a number of different scriptures that the disciples misunderstood the nature of what Jesus' being Messiah meant. They understood it in terms strictly of the Jewish nation being restored to the glory days like the kingdom under David and Solomon. They did not understand that it applied to the spiritual salvation of the world rather than the mere security and welfare of the Jewish nation alone. So when Jesus told them that the primary centerpiece of the collective Jewish identity, the temple, was going to literally be razed to the ground it surely shook them to their core.

In that context, it is almost certain that when they asked the questions that they did that they understood the three events as being synonymous. It is almost certain they felt all three were tantamount to the same event and/or time-frame.

That said, Jesus may very well have answered them in the way He did not to confuse or mislead, but to answer in a way they were ready to hear. If they knew or suspected that there would be thousands of years from the time the temple was downed to the time Jesus would come again and the Age of the Re-generation it may very well have upset their faith at this juncture of their growth and development. This may very well be why it can be so difficult to figure out exactly which parts of Jesus' answers applies to which questions. It is possible if not likely that He meant to answer in a way that made it look as though all were in very close proximity to each other.

Those things having been said, Jesus ties the parts in question to the "coming of the Son of Man." Now, is He talking about His coming in judgment and destruction of Israel through the Roman legions in 70 AD or is He talking about His final coming? I'm not sure and good points can be made in both areas.

I THINK that it is referring to the time of the very end of ALL things and the beginning of eternity. My reasons?

Just prior to the things you address Jesus says in Matthew 25:34-35 (34) I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

When Jesus says this generation will not pass away many think He is referring to the recent future. So by their thinking it would seem to apply to the fall of Jerusalem. Also a point in favor of this is Jesus warning in Luke 17:31 "On that day, the one who is on the housetop and whose goods are in the house must not go down to take them out; and likewise the one who is in the field must not turn back." This certainly fits better when thinking of the Fall of Jerusalem than the very end.

While this is certainly reasonable and I see why many have concluded this I think there are other considerations to bring to bear. In verse 34 He says this generation shall not pass way until this all happens. But in the very next verse He seems to tie it to Heaven and earth passing away while His Word will continue on. I am aware that cataclysmic events affecting the Jewish nation were often depicted in language which would be the same as the language which would be used if the whole world were ending. But I really don't think that's the case here. Here's why.

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Jesus reference here is to the "regeneration" being the time when Jesus has already come back. In light of this, could not "this generation" be talking about the entire age of man we are still living in rather than talking about the group who lived as contemporaries of Jesus? This seems very likely to me. Given that the three parables which immediately follow the last part of Matthew 24 seem to be tied to it and all of them are seemingly dealing with the VERY end, I conclude (though not dogmatically) that the end of Matthew 24 is talking about the VERY end.

Your observations about who was taken and who was left have been right under my nose the whole time and I had missed them. Your catch was simple but WONDERFUL. My appreciation was evidenced by the whistle of respect as I read it. I LOVE God's Word; that no matter how deep we go there is always deeper there. Thanks for the catch.

Certainly in the time of Noah AND Lot it was the wicked who were taken and the righteous left delivered. In other words the "Left Behind" (as has become popular due to the book and the popular fancy of "The Rapture") is not referring to the righteous being taken and the wicked "Left Behind" but rather the other way around. It refers to the wicked being taken in judgment and the righteous being left saved from this judgment.

These scriptures are proof texts for what is commonly referred to as "The Rapture." Why would Jesus give this analogy if the exact opposite was what was going to happen. This is very telling evidence that "The Rapture" is nothing more than a fiction made up in the hearts of well-meaning but ill informed people.



---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: John,

Thanks for your answer and the obviously large amount of time you put into it.  I am also encouraged by your response to my "catch" as many in the church of Christ have reacted very, very negatively to such questions.  Since you brought it up in your response, I hope you'll let me ask a follow up.  If not, I totally understand your time constraints (since I'm an expert here, too).

You said that you understood that references to the end of Judaism were couched in terms of the passing of the heavens and the earth (Deut. 32; Isaiah 1:2, 10; 65-66; etc.) but that you still thought that the second half of Matthew 24 was about the end of the kosmos because it referred to Jesus' "second coming".

Given these verses:  Matthew 16:27-28; Mark 8:38-9:1; Luke 9:26-27 as well as Isa. 13:6, 9; Isa. 19:1; 66:15

and that Matt. 24:29-30 takes place immediately after the tribulation that, if I understood you correctly, you associated with the destruction of Jerusalem

is it necessary to understand the phrase "the coming of the Lord" as relating to the end of the kosmos, or can it also be considered a coming in judgment as in against Jerusalem.

Thanks.

P.S.  I totally believe in the end of the kosmos, the literal return of Christ at the end of the kosmos, the resurrection of the dead (both just and unjust - Acts 24:15; 1 Thess. 4:13-17; 1 Cor. 15), and Judgment Day just in case you were worried...

Answer
Thanks for your kind words. I definitely think it could apply either way. And when I look at all the evidence put together I feel very swayed in both directions even with a magnitude of study. As a matter of fact, I feel there is but a hairs breadth of distance from one view to the other. I have believed both things and am much more of a leaner than one who is willing to say my mind is made up. I wonder if perhaps Jesus had some reason to want us to be continually wondering and questioning which it is?

I do know this, the way we are discussing this is the way ALL such issues should be dealt with, in humility and kindness. Division or separation on this issue would be tragic considering the strong arguments that could be made either way. I think it very sad that so many in our movement choose to belittle and squelch free open discussion in favor of pursuing dogmatism. No matter where each of us may be on the spiritual spectrum there is always someone who does not have the same background as we may have enjoyed. These may have questions on even the most settled and basic of things. No matter how plain the truth may seem to us we should recognize that not all who ask questions and want to debate do so out of rebellion and a desire to have things their way (though many do). Thanks.