Expert: Marvin Howard - 1/16/2007

Question
Marvin,

I read the article at the url you posted.  Though interesting reading it reads like any story that I have read in the past.  The baptists have one, so do the jehovahs witness, the mormons, the pentecostals among others.  My problem with all these stories is there lack of accompanying documents from those you say were followers.  Surely, as the jewish sects before them, like the essenes, left documents like the dead sea scrolls that at least give us a glimpse into belief systems and doctrines they followed.  They are pieces of an historical roadmap if you will.  We do not need every piece to dicern what they believed.  My followup is this, where are all the historical documents that back up the story by H. Godwin Grimm from the url that you posted?  There would have to be something written down somewhere.  If God hid his church among the years of the dark ages forward, there would be some proof if there were so many "true christians" around.  God made sure the jews wrote it down.  Why would christians be any different?  The so called protestant churches all trace their histories back to the 16th century starting around 1517 with Martin Luther.  Finally, if the Catholic Church officially became apostate in the 6th century, what about the Catholic Church's beliefs before then?  In the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd centuries before Constantine and the 4th after the Catholic Church's doctrines were the same as today, again read the church fathers of the church, Clement, Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, Ireneaus of Lyons, and the list goes on....

M.M.
-------------------------------------------
The text above is a follow-up to ...

-----Question-----
Marvin,

I notice a common theme in your answers concerning what makes up the "true church" or a denomination.  You call other churches "fakes" based on the Church of Christ interpretation of scripture and what makes up the true church.  Lets take on so called fake church into consideration.  The Catholic church has written documentation of her beliefs, dogmas, and doctrine that stretches back almost 2000 years, just read the church fathers.  My question is in your opinion when did the Catholic church become apostate and lose her way?  Can you pinpoint a year?
-----Answer-----
Hi!

M.M., I can very closely approximate when that started unoficially. I can also pinpoint, to the year, when the catholics completed their break from Christianity. This is supported both in history and prophecy. Where possible, which is the vast majority of the time; I will use passages that are so clear they need no interpreting.

Firstly, catholicism is nowhere mentioned by name in Scripture. The churches of Christ are (Romans 16:16). No, the churches of Christ today are not a different body founded by Stone and the Campbells. That is revisionist history, and I can prove it. I will get to that in a moment.

1st Corinthians 1:12, "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."

The leaders of catholicism still claim to be the sucessors of Peter. The beginnings of the church of Peter (Cephas) existed in the days of Paul. This was in addition to others. The church that followed Christ was right alongside it. Paul condemned the division; saying rhetorically that we should all follow Christ.

Over the course of time, ever more heretical doctrines were incorporated. That the biggest group called the smallest one heretical proves nothing. What matters is which group has practices specifically condemned by God, and which does not.

1st Timothy 4:1-5, "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer."

Timothy was warned plainly that the doctrine (or teaching) of devils was soon coming. These devils would specifically teach that it is wrong to eat meat, and that it is wrong to marry. This passage nowhere says that everybody would be forbidden, but that some unknown number would definitely be taught that it is wrong to eat meat or marry.

Who teaches (or taught) these doctrines? Who are the devils that teach it? Which group of teachers was seduced away from the Word of God? At one time (I have heard conflicting stories as to whether it remains true, but that it did is well documented in their own history), catholics forbid people to eat meat. Granted, it was only on Fridays, but God did not say that it was acceptable to forbid people to eat meat on Friday and wrong any other time. He said the people who teach it are devils. Eventually, the catholic heirarchy caved, and fish was allowed on Friday.

Nevertheless, even today, priests and nuns of the catholic faith are forbidden to marry. These devils maintain this doctrine, in spite of prophecy that they would and that they are devils for doing it. These seducers (Dare I say harlots in the same context that Israel was a harlot represented by Gomer; the wife of Hosea?) maintain this doctrine in spite of clear directions to the contrary in Scripture. According to catholics, bishops are higher ranking priests.

1st Ti 3:1-2, "This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behavior, given to hospitality, apt to teach;"

Bishops are not only permitted to marry, they are commanded to (MUST be) marry. If someone is not married, they are not a bishop in Christ's church. If they are bishops, they are bishops in something else; an imposter.

There are many more cases where catholicism documented its own departures and failures. At one point in time, no one could conduct business without the permission of the pope (Revelation 13:7). Catholics even decided that repentance from sin was not necessary to become a member. This is a deduction based on the following, which is incorporated into their doctrine:

Jeremiah 10:1-5, "Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel: Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good."

I only know of one religious symbol that meets this description exactly. What tree is cut down with an axe (not finely carved with knoves and awls), stood upright, and decorated with silver and gold?

Jeremiah was dealing with the worshippers of Ba'al (Nimrod, Saturn, Jupiter, Ra, you choose a name). When catholicism was confronted with the worship of false gods, they did not make people give up the false gods in order to be counted among them. The catholics incorporated the idolatry.

The church maintains the use of church music, and catholicism (by its own, Latin nomenclature) uses something that is not found in the church. Please see the following URL for exegetical documentation:

http://www.geocities.com/braswellcoc1/archive2.html

There is so much I could say, and space here does not allow me the opportunity. Also, I must answer this in three days, and it would take years just to put all the known deviations into writing. It would take volumes of books.

In 533, a man renamed himself John II. He was declared to be "the Lord of the Church," in the place of Jesus. This was the completion of the break between catholicism and Christianity. According to prophecy, the church would spend 1260 days in hiding (Revelation 12:6). The church would remain, alongside catholicism, for this time. In 1793 (1260 years later) James O'Kelly was the first in the United States to espouse the idea of returning to the church found in the Bible. This was almost simultaneously taught, independently, by Stone and the Campbells (among many others) in the early 1800's.

This was the providence of God in prophecy. The churches of Christ in Europe were dying at the same time. They had been bullied into the grave by that from which they were hiding; that which was the more powerful on this earth and falsely called the church heretical.

To see the proof (including a partial, eyewitness account) that the church existed alongside catholicism thr that 1700 years, please read the article at the following URL:

http://www.evangelismupdate.com/ARTICLES/grimm_article.htm

To see a graphic record of this, please see the chart at the following URL:

http://www.geocities.com/preacherman_1962/ChurchHistory.html

M.M., the catholics are not the church. They are not even "a" church among many. They are not Christian, at all. God specifically called them devils for their false doctrines.

I realize this is hard to hear, knowing what a lost and dying world believes and teaches. It is hard to learn that mistakes have been made. If you are in the church, I pray this strengthens your faith. If you are catholic, I pray it shakes your foundations so that you can accept the truth, at long last; finally where you can really become a Christian.

In His Service,
Marvin Howard
http://www.geocities.com/preacherman_1962
http://360.yahoo.com/preacherman_1962

Answer
Hi!

M.M., the doctrines of catholicism have not remained the same since the fourth century. Their own history records changes, contrary to Galatians 1:8-9, all the way through it. I have dates as late as 1870 where the pope first claimed infallibility, and 1845 where the idea that Mary was conceived in the same manner as Jesus. There is a list of doctrines, and the dates they were invented, on the lower, left corner of that chart I referenced in my initial answer.

There were never so many true Christians around. Even today, when we are not going to be murdered by catholicism or other religions, there are only about 4 million worldwide. There are just over 2 million in the U.S. This is in line with the prophecy of Jesus in Matthew 7:14. Few people will find Heaven, while most will simply stray into Hell. Additionally, our practices are all written down; they are in the Bible, and the Bible forbids further change. Anything written beyond the Bible is either too much, too little, or redundant. However, I do understand that you need history. I have another URL for you to visit.

http://www.traces-of-the-kingdom.org.uk

Here is one quote on page two:

“The earliest date for Christianity arriving in Britain has been set at the year 37 although other historians date it later at around the year 58/63.  Eusebius the fourth century historian says 'The Apostles passed beyond the ocean to the isles called the Brittanic Isles.'  Tertullian Says 'The regions of Britain which have never been penetrated by Roman Arms have received the religion of Christ.'”

Here is a quote from page 5:

“From around the late 500s starting in the east a sect of Christians who were called Paulicians, because of their ability to defend their doctrine from the New Testament, particularly from the letters of the apostle Paul came to the notice of the authorities.  They said that they were “Christians who were chosen of God” and called each other “brother or sister”.  They had rejected the infant baptism of the Catholic church teaching that faith is required before baptism.”

Here is a quote from page 19:

“From the time of the Norman Conquest to the early 1700s Church and State in Europe and Britain were closely intertwined.  Until the Reformation the pope was the most powerful man on earth.  Heresy was considered equal to treason as a crime, and as a result these Bible believing Christians were hunted down, tortured and if they did not recant they were most horribly executed.  Any Bibles and other literature, tracts etc. were burnt with them.  Catholic/Protestant historians had no interest in their theology and saw them only as the worst of criminals.  As a result of this, information today is often lacking in detail.”

There are 19 pages of documentation at this one site. I cannot include it all in this forum. Beyond that, there are several links to further support. I highly recommend that you investigate all. Overlay it with your known history for accuracy. Realize that much documentation was lost when it was burned with the Christians, but much still remains. Congregational autonomy protected the church from obliteration by making it difficult to locate, but this also reduced the amount of documentation available.

It is often said, "He who wins the war gets to write the history." This is only logical. While catholicism did not win the war, they won many battles, and believe they did win the war. Nevertheless, there is some history that the catholics could not erase (one must but look for it); proving that they did not truly win the war. They could not win against God. The gates of Hell could not prevail against the church.

In His Service,
Marvin Howard
http://www.geocities.com/preacherman_1962
http://360.yahoo.com/preacherman_1962