Expert: Marvin Howard - 10/30/2006

Question
I appreciate your timely responce. And I do not mean to be rude, but I am amazed and very surprised that you think these verses are referring to the Roman army coming into Jerusalem.

29"But immediately after the (AI)tribulation of those days (AJ)THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND (AK)THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30"And then (AL)the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see (AM)the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
31"And (AN)He will send forth His angels with (AO)A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His (AP)elect from (AQ)the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.


This verse is very plainly talking about Jesus's return. It talks about Jesus coming in the clouds of the sky. That is what the angels alluded to when Jesus assended in Acts. They asked the people whey they were gazing in the sky. They told them that Jesus would come back the exact way he left. He left in a cloud.
The verse also talks about Jesus sending forth his angels for the gathering together of the elect. That also is to happen at the return.
The verse describes a great trumpet. Yep, in Revelation there is a trumpet involved there too.
What Jesus is doing is talking about the end. He is telling how it will all break down, then He goes on after verse 32 to caution people about being ready. Saying this is describing the Roman army is trying to make something fit here that does not fit. This verse says nothing of an army. I honestly came to you because I was floored at what I hear GBN stay. My family and I are honestly trying to find the truth. When I first started looking into the COC I heard people say that they spoke where the bible spoke and were silent where the bible is silent. To me that means to let the bible say what it says and not add things where they do not fit. And to be honest, that is what I think you are doing here. I am not about making the bible fit my theory, I think our beliefs should come out of what the bible says. I have not seen a Premillennial rapture yet, but I do not think the man of sin has been revealed yet either as spoken of in 2 Thess. chapter 2 either. When I hear teachings like this it makes me wander what other teachings may not be true either. I have tried to ask others at the 2 COC's in my area, but they only want to tell me what they have to say and don't want a discussion. I feel that if someone is not willing to talk with me openly about something, then they either are not confident in there beliefs or they are hiding something. I am interested in learning and studying the truth, not traditions. Again, I do not intend on being hateful, but what you said just does not add up. I would be happy to hear your thoughts.

         Thanks,

-------------------------------------------
The text above is a follow-up to ...

-----Question-----
I have recently been trying to figure out where me and my family should go to church. Due to this I have been doing studies of the beliefs between Baptist and the Churches of Christ. Those are the two we have narrowed it down to. I however have some major problems with the COC's end times teachings. I was recently listening to the COC's Gospel Broadcasting Network and they claim that Matthew 24:29-31 already happened. They claim that Jesus came back with the Roman army. That does not even make sense. When I hear teaching like that it makes me wonder what else COC is teaching wrong. I am not trying to insult anyone. I am just after the truth. My belief is if the COC is the true church than they would not be teaching error. But, to be honest, I don't see a rapture in the scriptures either. I am kinda out in left field on this one. I would appreciate any help you could give. But show in the scriptures please. Your word means nothing, Gods words means everything.

         Thanks

-----Answer-----
Hi!

Chris, before I begin with a possible answer (for I am unsure what you actually heard), I must give you a warning. There are 26 denominations that split from the church in modern times (19th century onward). Twenty-three of them still claim that they are the church of Christ. Just because someone says they are does not make it so. There are liberals, anti's, one cuppers, those who will not have a paid preacher, those who think the church cannot help people other than Christians, and a host of other strange sounding and anti-Biblical doctrine. This is in addition to the many groups, extant since the Reformation, that actually claim to be denominations, and are recognized as such by everyone.

One of these groups, and I am afraid that my own father has fallen victim to them, believes what you said; that Jesus has already come (at Jerusalem), and that He will not return again. They think that each of us now has our resurrection and judgment at our death. Max King is one of the biggest proponents of this. I must admit, I am absolutely flabbergasted that such would be on GBN, if it was not just a misunderstanding. I do remember seeing a program similar to that which you describe, but I got a different message.

After I briefly explain what I think you heard, I want to direct you to several sermons I have done (all full of scripture) on the various topics you broached in your question. Many people believe that the church of Christ is just another denomination among many. They believe the church was founded by Alexander Campbell in 1818, or somewhere around this time. Some realize that he was not the first to reach the decision to return to the same church of the Bible. Though Campbell was preceded by Stone, James O'Kelley did it first in the U.S. in 1793, as prophesied in Revelation 12:6 (after a mere man, a pope, was declared to be "Lord of the Church" in 533). This is the Restoration. Each of these came out of different denominations to become Christians, and at about the same time, and without pre-existing knowledge of the others. This was divine providence in light of the health of the churches of Christ in Europe. In either case, there was not a new church founded. Some, even within the church, believe that the church was gone from the earth before this time. Such is likewise not true. The church was merely in hiding, also according to this prophecy. I am also going to give you two, other web address proving the history of the church in Europe. Space in this forum prevents me from just pasting them all here, and you need the information. You have no idea how delighted I am to see the last, two statements you made. I pray that the Scriptures I provide within my additional sources are sufficient for you.

The Bible does not say, and therefore the church does not believe, that Jesus returned at the destruction of Jerusalem. This was but one of many "nation judgments" foretold in Scripture, all the way back through the Old Testament. Each of these is written in apocalyptic language. Each was authorized by God (and since Jesus is God, by Him, as well). Matthew 24 has nothing to do with the return of Christ before verse 36. Beginning with Matthew 24:36 and continuing through chapter 25 does. With the use of the conjunction "but" in 36, Jesus said you can know about the thing I just addressed, but you cannot know about this. You see, the disciples unwittingly asked Jesus two questions instead of the one intended, as they had yet to receive the miraculous knowledge of the Spirit at Pentecost. Jesus gave two, distinct answers.

Do you remember the passage where Paul argued doctrine based on the inclusion of just one "s" (or lack thereof), the difference between seed and seeds? The use of grammar is extremely important, even plurals. The argument may be found in Galatians 3:15ff, all the way to the end of the chapter.

In Matthew 23:36-24:35, Jesus is speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem. The temple would be destroyed. Not one stone would be left upon another of the original temple. He prophesied that it would happen within that generation. Indeed, it did happen, about 40 years later. There have never been found two complete stones of the temple still joined together. The Wailing Wall was not part of the temple, but rather a fence, if you will, around it. Matthew 24:30 does not declare that they would see the Son of man, but rather His sign. In verse 34, Jesus firmly declared that some of those alive would see it before they died. If it hasn't happened already, then we really have some old folks walking around here. The same is true of the book of Revelation, all of which would “shortly come to pass.” These passages have been fulfilled, indeed. However, they have nothing to do with the return of Jesus. The Roman army didn't come "with" Jesus. They came "for" Him, carrying out His will, since Israel as a whole still rejected God by rejecting Him, and still do to this date. We have the same recorded of the Medes and Persians taking over Babylon, Syria and Assyria taking Israel and Judah, and other cases of captivities and judgments, none of which is THE Judgment.

The disciples misunderstood. To their way of thinking, the destruction of the temple was equivalent with the destruction of the world. You must remember, they still believed that the Messiah was still coming to establish an earthly kingdom, despite Jesus' proclamations to the contrary as in John 18:36. This same faulty thinking is what leads to the doctrine of the rapture. Rapture advocates believe that the disciples were not mistaken, but that Jesus failed in His first attempt to establish the kingdom. Which would you rather believe, that Jesus was mistaken, or men?

When the disciples used the plural and singular terms, "things" and "sign," they spoke of two distinct things.

I want to assign a study for you. I spoke earlier of "nation judgments" and apocalyptic language. There are very few passages that actually deal with the end of the world, from the physical standpoint. I can only find three. Each of these is in plain language, rather than the moon turning to blood, or other such descriptions. See if you can find them.

Chris, once again I thank you for the opportunity to answer this question for you. I pray your search for the church of God's choice goes well. I commend you for realizing that your preference is not the criteria. If I may be of further assistance to you, please do not hesitate to ask. Here are the web addresses I promised you:

http://www.geocities.com/braswellcoc1/archive5.html

http://www.geocities.com/braswellcoc1/archive6.html

http://www.geocities.com/braswellcoc1/archive2.html

http://www.geocities.com/braswellcoc1/archive25.html

http://www.geocities.com/braswellcoc1/archive26.html

http://www.geocities.com/preacherman_1962/ChurchHistory.html

http://www.evangelismupdate.com/ARTICLES/grimm_article.htm

http://www.traces-of-the-kingdom.org

In His Service,
Marvin Howard
http://www.geocities.com/preacherman_1962
http://360.yahoo.com/preacherman_1962

Answer
Hi!

Chris, I apologize for my reply taking so long. I am quite busy at the moment, and perhaps I should set my vacation dates with All Experts to reflect this.

After further examination, I now believe that this is a prophecy with a more lengthy fulfillment, yet it has already occurred. Still, it does not refer to Jesus’ return. I went back to the original Greek and studied it, translating it directly, without the 17th century idioms. I did this before reading any commentary, to prevent it’s clouding my judgment, or placing prejudice in my translation. John Gill’s Commentary says this refers to the siege at Jerusalem, and the accompanying destruction of the Temple. However, what I found actually shed much light on the subject, showing me the extended fulfillment for the first time ever. Gill is actually incorrect, making the same miskate I made. I wish to show you what I found, and how it is relevant.

Here is the passage from the KJV:

Matthew 24:29-31, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” (KJV)

Here is the passage in the Greek:

Matthew 24:29-31, “Εὐθέως δὲ μετὰ τὴν θλῖψιν τῶν ἡμερῶν ἐκείνων ὁ ἣλιος σκοτισθήσεται καὶ ἡ σελήνη οὐ δώσει τὸ φέγγος αὐτῆς, καὶ οἱ ἀστέρες πεσοῦνται ἀπὸ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ, καὶ αἱ δυνάμεις τῶν οὐρανῶν σαλευθήσονται.  καὶ τότε φανήσεται τὸ σημεῖον τοῦ Υἱοῦ τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ, καὶ τότε κόψονται πᾶσαι αἱ φυλαὶ τῆς γῆς καὶ ὄψονται τὸν Υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ἐρχόμενον ἐπὶ τῶν νεφελῶν τοῦ οὐρανοῦ μετὰ δυνάμεως καὶ δόξης πολλῆς. καὶ ἀποστελεῖ τοὺς ἀγγέλους αὐτοῦ μετὰ σάλπιγγος φωνῆς μεγάλης, καὶ ἐπισυνάξουσι τοὺς ἐκλεκτοὺς αὐτοῦ ἐκ τῶν τεσσάρων ἀνέμων ἀπ᾿ ἄκρων οὐρανῶν ἕως ἄκρων αὐτῶν” (GNT)

Here is my translation:

Matthew 24:29-31, “Straightway but after the selfsame persecution time, the great light of the east is obscured likewise the moon shall not bring forth her brilliancy, and the scattered lights of the sky shall no longer give light, and the miraculous force in Heaven shall be disturbed. And at that time shines the wonder of the Son of man in the sky: indeed at the same time laments all the family of man on earth, and they shall wonder as the Son of man enters unto the clouds of the sky amid dynamic force and much honor, then set apart His messengers accompanied by reverberating sayings {languages} great, followed by collecting into one place His chosen completely from the four quarters, from one extremity under the sky by the Gospel to the other extremity. (Direct Translation by MRH)

Now, I want you to notice the following passages, looking at the similarities:

Joel 2:28-32, “And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.  The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.” (KJV)

Matthew 24:29-31, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” (KJV)

Matthew and Joel use the same, apocolyptic language. Therefore, if Joel was fulfilled, so was Matthew. Was Joel fulfilled in Scripture?

Acts 2:16-21, “But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Peter said the moon turning to blood, and all the other accompanying language, was fulfilled on Pentecost. Let’s go back to my translation, which indicates that this is a prophecy that extended all the way from the crucifixion to Pentecost, noting the various aspects that were fulfilled by their verses.

Matthew 24:29-31, “Straightway but after the selfsame persecution time, the great light of the east is obscured likewise the moon shall not bring forth her brilliancy, and the scattered lights of the sky shall no longer give light (Matthew 27:45), and the miraculous force in Heaven shall be disturbed (Matthew 27:51). And at that time shines the wonder of the Son of man in the sky (Matthew 27:54-56): indeed at the same time laments all the family of man on earth (Matthew 27:54), and they shall wonder as the Son of man enters unto the clouds of the sky amid dynamic force and much honor (Acts 1:10-11), then set apart His messengers accompanied by reverberating sayings {languages} great (Acts 2:4), followed by collecting into one place His chosen completely from the four quarters, from one extremity under the sky by the Gospel to the other extremity (Acts 2:5-47).” (Direct Translation by MRH)

The passage in Matthew does indeed refer to the advent of Christ. However, it is not the second (and still future) advent, but the first. It does indeed refer to the Temple. However, like the Apostles before the gift of miraculous knowledge, Gill and I both had it applying to the wrong Temple. The great and terrible day of the Lord was Pentecost, and as prophesied, occured before many of the generation died.

Matthew 26:61, “And said, this fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.”

John 2:19, “Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

There remains the distinction between “things” and “sign” shown by the contrasting conjunction “but” in Matthew 24:36. The verses following are the context of the second coming. Those before have nothing to do with it.

Chris, thank you for making me study this further. I now have a more sound and sure answer on the subject; one that is less speculative, and actually provable by the Bible and not by history. Now, I must show it to my Brethren. At least members of the churches of Christ can admit it when they are wrong, unlike the denominations which are stuck in their creeds.

In His Service,
Marvin Howard
http://www.geocities.com/preacherman_1962
http://360.yahoo.com/preacherman_1962