Expert: Marvin Howard - 6/11/2007

Question
QUESTION: Marvin,

I was reading your response to a question regarding the "household of God" from 5/16/07.  I read through verses you posted and noticed you left off this one:

Ephesians 2:19,20
So then ye are no more strangers and sojourners, but ye are fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God, being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief corner stone;

What do you think about the household of God being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets?  So often christians say that Jesus is the "foundation" but clearly this verse points to the foundation as the apostles and prophets and clearly states Jesus is the capstone or cornerstone holding the foundation together.  What do you think?


ANSWER: Hi!

I believe I remember answering questions from you before, as well. I will be happy to address this one.

In my human frailty, I only searched for the exact phrase Brother Ernie mentioned. I failed to look for similar phrases.

You are correct in your assessment. Jesus is the foundation according to 1st Corinthians 3:11. Nevertheless, the Apostles are the twelve foundations of the church (the bride, the Lamb's wife) in Revelation 21:14 and Ephesians 2:19-20.

There is no contradiction within these passages. The Apostles were in agreement with Jesus. Therefore, their foundations were His anyway. I guess the best way to simplify it for the purposes of understanding is this:

"The Cornerstone (Jesus) of the foundation is the foundation of the foundation (which includes both Jesus and the Apostles)."

This is another difficult concept. It is along the lines of understanding the oneness that is the three persons of God. They are one, but at the same time, they are not.

I hope this helps.

In His Service,
Marvin Howard
http://www.geocities.com/preacherman_1962
http://360.yahoo.com/preacherman_1962

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Marvin,

In the context of 1 Corinthians 3:11, is the foundation spoken of here the foundation of the church, or the foundation of our faith?  I do not know if it is worth the discussion but as you may have gleaned from prior posts I believe the foundation of the "church" or the household of God is the apostles and the prophets.  The foundation of our faith is in Christ Jesus our Lord.  I believe and have been taught by the church that though they go hand and hand different foundations are being referred to.  Especially in light of the fact Ephesians 2:19,20 says specifically that the foundation of the "church" or household of God is the apostles and prophets and the "corner" or "cap" stone is Jesus Christ.  That would mean that the foundation is held together by faith in Christ, but the foundation is upon exactly who the text says it is built upon.  Just more food for thought for you.
ANSWER: Hi!

M.M., let's take a closer look at the Ephesians passage.

Ephesians 2:19-20, "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;"

The passage states plainly that the foundation is the apostles and prophets. However, to stop there as you do, and say there are two foundations, is an injustice to the passage. The very next phrase says that Jesus is also part of that foundation, being the corner stone.

It is only recently in architecture that the corner stone has been separated from the foundation. It is only recently that the corner stone has been relegated to a purely ornamental ststus. Initially, the corner stone was the first piece laid, and the rest of the foundation was laid in such a way as to fit the corner.

The cornerstone, as used in Scripture, is a vital part of the foundation. A foundation without a cornerstone will not stand. A corner stone without the rest of the foundation is useless. Both are present in any construct worth anything, and part of the same thing.

The idea of separating these stems from the doctrine of premillenialism; that the church and kingdom are different, and the kingdom has yet to occur. Granted, some weaker brethren may not realize this, and perpetuate the idea.

Examine the passages closely and honestly, and you will see the point.

Revelation 21:10-14, "And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb."

The foundation of the kingdom (New Jerusalem) is all of the Apostles, not Peter alone as claimed by catholicism.

Matthew 16:18, "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

The foundation of the church is Jesus, and the fact that He is the Son of God.

Matthew 16:19, "And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

In the very next verse, Jesus declares the synonymous use of the terms "church" and "kingdom." They are the same thing. The use of either Jesus, or the Apostles, for the whole of the foundation is nothing more than metonymy; the use of one thing with similar characteristics as a representation of the whole. The Bible is full of such usage.

The corner stone is the most important part of the foundation, for nothing else can exist without it, but without the entire foundation (both Jesus and the Apostles), there can be no church.

In His Service,
Marvin Howard
http://www.geocities.com/preacherman_1962
http://360.yahoo.com/preacherman_1962

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Marvin,

I think we are talking semantics here.  I never said that there are two foundations to the church, nor did I say there are two foundations to our faith.  Obviously, the foundation of our faith is Jesus Christ.  Would you not agree?  Following that faith in Jesus the foundation of the church was laid upon the apostles and prophets as Ephesians says, Jesus being the corner or cap stone.  You see Marvin, many so called christians have faith in Jesus without having faith in his church for they do not attend one nor worship with others in one.  These are the ones who claim by reading the bible and praying the Holy Spirit guides them through life without any worship in church at all.  Would you not agree many do this?  As Paul stated, "Do not forsake the gathering of yourselves together which is the custom of many."  Yet so many do this.  They do not trust in the apostles and prophets preaching, they trust in their own interpretations as "they" say the spirit guides them.  Why do you think we have so many denominations within Christendom?  You also seem to ignore my statements from my previous post.  I never stopped at any part of the verse, in fact read my previous post again:

Ephesians 2:19,20
So then ye are no more strangers and sojourners, but ye are fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God, being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief corner stone;

What do you think about the household of God being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets?  So often christians say that Jesus is the "foundation" but clearly this verse points to the foundation as the apostles and prophets and clearly states Jesus is the capstone or cornerstone holding the foundation together.  What do you think?

Not only did I post the whole verse but I specifically said Jesus is the "corner" or "cap" stone.  Did you ignore that part of my post? Finally, your idea of the church and the kingdom being synonymous is correct.  Remember when we pray the "Our Father" prayer we say, "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done on (earth as it is in heaven)."  The kingdom is here represented in the pilgrim church.  When Revelation is read and we see the great city descending from heaven we are looking at the "church".  The apocalyptic literature of the book of Revelation is so often misinterpreted.

I hope we can agree on certain issues.  First, Jesus is the foundation of our faith, as the bible says.  Second, the foundation of the church is built upon the apostles and the prophets, as the bible says.  Or do you disagree the faith (in Jesus Christ) of the apostles and prophets that they preached to all does not make up the foundation of the church?  This faith we share in Christ should be enough to bind us but so often, people are quick to put their biased beliefs in what their church teaches over what historical christianity always has taught.

Peace be with you,

M.M.

Answer
Hi!

M.M., you lost me. First you say, "I believe and have been taught by the church that though they go hand and hand different foundations are being referred to." Then you say, "I never said that there are two foundations to the church, nor did I say there are two foundations to our faith."

Granted, you did not say there were two foundations in those exact words, but you did say there is more than one foundation by use of the plural. You did say they are different. Since you spoke of the Apostles as one, and Jesus as another, you left me no conclusion to draw other than that you referenced two.

You pasted the whole verse, then went back and said, "What do you think about the household of God being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets?" You did leave out the last phrase, shredding the context of the passage, to separate into multiple foundations something that should have only one. Then you recant your statement, somewhat, by saying, "So often christians say that Jesus is the "foundation" but clearly this verse points to the foundation as the apostles and prophets and clearly states Jesus is the capstone or cornerstone holding the foundation together." You ask me what I think.

My point is, since the Apostles spoke Jesus' words, as promised by the Holy Spirit in John 14:26, anything built upon them is also built upon Jesus. Likewise, anything built upon Jesus is also built upon the Apostles as they wrote His words and are the extension of His teachings.

"Historical Christianity" is not to be trusted. You must remember, most of that history was written by an apostate body that split from and left the church. This body persecuted the church, and kept it in the wilderness for 1260 years (Revelation 12:6), from 533 A.D through 1793 A.D. The church is no longer in the wilderness. Most of "historical Christianity" is not Christianity at all, but rather a new religion, formulated by man, that is comprised of bits of Christianity, paganism, and Judaism. The church does not quote the "Lord's Prayer." To do so is to deny that the kingdom has come. For a more detailed explanation on why the "Our Father" is no longer a valid prayer, please see my sermon at the following URL:

http://www.geocities.com/braswellcoc1/archive12.html

Anything that is built upon Jesus is also built upon the Apostles. Anything that is built upon the Apostles is also built upon Jesus. Faith is something else included in this mix. The different terms are used at different times to keep false doctrine from entering.

I do agree that many should not forsake the church. I must simply admonish everyone to make sure that the group they attend is really the church, and not a "Johnny come lately" imposter as are the protestant denominations. Likewise, it should not be one that split so early that the split is recorded and condemned in Scripture (1st Corinthians 1:12). The church of Cephas (Peter) still exists today, and has all of denominationalism hoodwinked into believing it is the church of Christ and the original. The churches of Christ are the original, and they are not catholic. Those terms are mutually exclusive.

When a false group declares something different, and they do, they should NOT be bound to the church just because they say they believe in Jesus. They say, and do not. They believe in something else, and either deliberately or mistakenly call their false god Jesus. In fact, the churches of Christ are warned to avoid both catholics and protestants in Romans 16:16-18, as these are the groups that bring different doctrine. Denominationalism, even dating from the writing of 1st Corinthians, is a sin. For a video sermon where I prove that anyone in a denomination is lost, please see the following URL:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9118840870056918783

M.M., I can't make it more clear. If something has Jesus as the foundation, it also has the Apostles for a foundation. If something has the Apostles for a foundation, it also has Jesus for a foundation. They are forever inseparable.

In His Service,
Marvin Howard
http://www.geocities.com/preacherman_1962
http://360.yahoo.com/preacherman_1962