Expert: Joe Norman - 9/10/2007

Question
QUESTION: Are these scriptures true? John 6:28-29; They replied, "what does GOD want us to do? JESUS told them "this is what GOD wants you to do: believe in the ONE HE has sent.  John 6:63; It is the SPIRIT who gives life, human effort accomplishes nothing. I don't understand how you twisted "belief" into something  a person "does", it is what a person "has".

ANSWER: I did not twist anything. The unfortunate fact is that you attempt to take a small part of what God reveals to us regarding His plan of salvation and ignore the rest. But let's look more closely at the first passage you used and include verse 27.

John 6:27-29
 WORK not for the food which perisheth, but for the food which abideth unto eternal life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him the Father, even God, hath sealed. They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye BELIEVE on him whom he hath sent.

 The thing that jumps out at me is how Jesus says believing on Him was the WORK of God. Work is paralleled to belief. I know this is not something you are willing to admit to, but they are paralleled.

 Let's look a more than just the small part of John chapter 6 shall we? What is revealed regarding what saves a person in the New Testament?

Here is another passage from the Gospel of John that is quite telling.

John 3:36  He that BELIEVETH on the Son hath eternal life; but he that OBEYETH NOT the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Notice that belief and obedience are parallel again.

Acts 5:32  And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God hath given to them that OBEY him.

 God gives the Holy Spirit to them that OBEY Him...isn't that interesting? I am sure you are aware of passages that say the Spirit is given to those who believe....do you see another parallel? You should.

Rom.6:16-18
 Know ye not, that to whom ye present yourselves as servants unto OBEDIENCE, his servants ye are whom ye OBEY; whether of sin unto death, or of OBEDIENCE unto righteousness? But thanks be to God, that, whereas ye were servants of sin, ye became OBEDIENT from the heart to that FORM OF TEACHING whereunto ye were delivered; and being made free from sin, ye became servants of righteousness.

I ask you to explain these verses with your "no works of any kind" man-made doctrine? Now let's look at more scripture.

Heb.5:8,9
 though he was a Son, yet learned obedience by the things which he suffered; and having been made perfect, he became unto all them that OBEY him the author of eternal salvation;

 I see another parallel to belief in what is written in Hebrews. How about this passage from Peter?

1 Pet.4:17
 For the time is come for judgment to begin at the house of God: and if it begin first at us, what shall be the end of them that OBEY NOT the gospel of God?

 It should be clear that God requires something from us. This is most clear when you read the verses in Hebrews that I posted. Jesus became the author of eternal salvation to whom? Only to them that OBEY Him!

It would do you some good to study all of the book of James...especially chapter 2, but I want to point out that the only place in the entire Bible that has the words "faith" and "only" in the same sentence is found in James 2:24.

James 2:24  Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.

 Another point you ignore is what occurred on the day of Pentecost.

Acts 2:37-40
 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles, Brethren, what shall we DO? And Peter said unto them, REPENT ye, and BE BAPTIZED every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ UNTO the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For to you is the promise, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call unto him. And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, SAVE YOURSELVES from this crooked generation. They then that received his word WERE BAPTIZED: and there were added unto them in that day about three thousand souls.

 Please note that Peter did not tell them - DO NOTHING BUT BELIEVE and you will be saved. He also did not instruct them to "ask Jesus to come into your heart" or say this "Sinner's Prayer." In verse 40, he actually said, SAVE YOURSELVES...it seems Peter did not share your belief regarding salvation. James even tells us that demons believe and tremble (James 2:19). Consider these passages as well.

Matt.7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that DOETH the will of my Father who is in heaven.

1 JOHN 2:17
And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that DOETH the will of God abideth for ever.

 There is much more you need to accept from God's Word than the few you focus on. Accept it all and you will be saved. I can show you my faith by what I do...how can you show me your faith? Please understand that Faith is the EVIDENCE of things not seen. The only way that faith can be evidence of things not seen is if faith can be seen. How is that possible? The answer is that faith is made perfect (a more accurate word would be "complete") by works. They are both required. (James 2:22) I hope that the scripture I have presented will open your eyes to the truth regarding God's plan of salvation. Nothing we do can EARN our salvation, but God does require a response from us...we have to accept His free gift and He reveals how we accept this free gift.

         Immersed Into Christ, Joe Norman

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: I understand why, but I don't understand how you came to the conclusion that I don't embrace the entire scope of the Holy Scriptures. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is very real to me and it is what I adhere to, but I am learning to read the bible for all it is worth and that way when I come to difficult passages that seem to contradict, GOD through HIS SPIRIT gives me clarity and insight, by study, research, and Divine revelation of HIS already revealed Word. I apologize for giving you the impression that I have tunnel vision or that I have been blinded by the prince of the power of the air, but the fact is this; I know that it takes works of obedience to be pleasing to GOD( that is 100 percent obedience) and a person also has to be sinless in order to be accepted by HIM and to not come under HIS wrath. The truth is that I just don't measure up and I'm morally incapable of obeying HIM because HIS HOLY standard cannot receive obedience from a sinful being, but instead demands justice. Oh, but thank GOD for the sinless, spotless, HOLY LAMB, who fulfilled the requirements of the Holy LAW. Romans 3: 23-27 NLT follows; For all have sinned;all fall short of GOD'S glorious standard. Yet now God in HIS gracious kindness declares us not guilty. HE has done this through CHRIST JESUS, who has freed us by taking away our sins. For GOD sent JESUS to take the punishment for our sins and to satisfy GOD'S anger against us. We are made right with GOD when we believe that JESUS shed HIS blood, sacrificing HIS life for us. GOD was being entirely fair when HE did not punish those who sinned in former times. And HE is entirely fair and just in this present time when HE declares sinners to be right in HIS sight because they believe in JESUS. Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by GOD? No, because our acquittal is not based on our good deeds. It is based on our faith. I know that you believe that faith is obedience, but the fact is according to scripture the faith believers are to posess is trust in the life and sacrifice of CHRIST. Now thats a saving faith because I'm not depending on my obedience but rather trusting in the capability of JESUS to be pleasing unto GOD the FATHER in my behalf, and I have recieved CHRIST'S righteous standing based on my recieveing the payment for my sins from the cross of CHRIST.   Speaking the truth in love, Anthony.

Answer
  I came to the conclusion that you do not embrace the entire scope of the Holy Scriptures because you have only used a very small portion of God's Word in your correspondence and because to believe in faith only and once saved, always saved...a person has to deny, ignore, or twist much of God's Word. Also, to imply that the Holy Spirit directly guides you into all truth is equal to saying that God's Word in NOT sufficient on its own. The promise that Jesus made regarding the Holy Spirit guiding someone into all truth was only promised to the apostles. Why? Well simply because the NT had not been written yet.

 You claim that you understand God requires obedience and it must be perfect obedience. I agree. You state that no one other than Jesus can live a perfect life. Again, I agree 100% - that is clearly taught in God's Word. I depend on Jesus Christ with all that I am. I do not depend on myself at all. Does this mean that there is NO RESPONSE needed? Does God declare ALL sinners to be righteous in His sight just by believing? Why then does the writer of the book of Hebrews say Jesus is the author of salvation to ALL who OBEY Him? (Heb.5:8,9)

 The real problem is that you still do not understand that there is a difference between belief (mental ascent) and saving faith. I do not believe that faith and obedience are the same thing. I believe what the Word of God reveals. Faith is made complete when acted upon. Where is trust in God if you do not act on what you believe?

Consider this passage from the Gospel of John.

John 12:42,43
 Nevertheless even of the rulers many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess it, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: for they loved the glory that is of men more than the glory that is of God.

When you read this, doesn't it become clear that more is needed than just simple mental ascent belief? You have yet to explain why Ananias tells Saul/Paul to "rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on the Lord" if he had been praying and fasting for three days. (Acts 22:16)

Requiring water baptism is not adding to God's Word, nor does it contradict the fact that we are saved in spite of our imperfections. It also does not EARN our salvation. It simply is the way that we respond and receive God's grace.

 Think about Naaman. Do you remember him? The whole story can be read in II Kings chapter 5, but I only want to focus on a part of the story to help you understand water baptism and its role in salvation.

2Kings 5:10-14
 And Elisha sent a messenger unto him, saying, Go and wash in the Jordan seven times, and thy flesh shall come again to thee, and thou shalt be clean.  But Naaman was wroth, and went away, and said, Behold, I thought, He will surely come out to me, and stand, and call on the name of Jehovah his God, and wave his hand over the place, and recover the leper. Are not Abanah and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? May I not wash in them, and be clean? So he turned and went away in a rage.

 And his servants came near, and spake unto him, and said, My father, if the prophet had bid thee do some great thing, wouldest thou not have done it? how much rather then, when he saith to thee, Wash, and be clean?

 Then went he down, and dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God; and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean.

 Now my question to you regarding Naaman is this...did dipping seven times in the Jordan river earn his healing of leprosy? Obviously, the answer is no. Was the power to cleanse him in the water? No! What healed him? He trusted that if he SUBMITTED to what was instructed him by God, he would be healed.

 Now I realize this was not spiritual salvation that occurred  with Naaman, but it was a shadow of what water baptism is for Christianity. Jesus commanded his apostles to go into all the world and preach the gospel - baptizing them (Matt.28:19,20 and Mark 16:15,16). Why? It is obvious to all who will honestly study God's Word.

 I beg you to carefully study James chapter 2 again to get real insight into saving faith. Faith is dead without works and works without faith is equally dead. If I am not acting on my belief, but just mindlessly keeping law, it will profit me nothing. Why do we do God's will? Is it to earn our salvation? Not at all! We do it out of our love for God and thankfulness for His grace! We cannot be perfect, but God expects us to strive for that every day of our lives. That is why Paul says he disciplines his body and brings it into subjection. (I Cor.9:24-27).

 I am praying for you Anthony. I want to help you. Yet, I do not think you are open to being helped. I fear that you only seek to debate and argue. I hope I am wrong. Please study carefully like the bereans. Do not let outside sources twist your understanding of God's Word. Let it interpret itself. Do not just blindly believe what anyone says...study to determine if what is taught is actually true. God has given us His complete Word and we need to use our God given abilities to study it IN CONTEXT and apply proper exegesis.

         Immersed Into Christ, Joe Norman