Expert: Marbeth - 1/26/2009

Question
QUESTION: well, I used up my followups. sorry the link didn't work. I used to have a good site to store files. to bad there is no anonymous email where I can send it. I listened again, and I'll try to explain what I am picking up. it starts off sounding like one of those "sonata-rondo" movements, where the intervening sections are developmental episodes, but the return of the opening material is quite abbreviated. THEN it returns like a proper recapitulation, THEN there seems to be this giant meandering coda at the end.

As for the trios, I have heard all of those at least once. some of the late ones are just unearthly. there are a number of great piano sonatas as well. Actually, there is less boring music by haydn than any other composer I can think of. the early works, if relatively modest are INTERESTING and often quite funny. I think beethoven learned more from H. than he would admit to. try his last quartet and see if perhaps there is a little tribute to haydn in there.

I'll try later to see if I can get you a copy of the haydn symphony movement. btw the opening movement stumbles like a drunken sailor, and the minuet makes fun of the bassoon.

ANSWER: Just send me a fresh post; I'll get it; and don't worry if you run out of follow-ups.

This sounds like a wonderful symphony!  I look forward to hearing it.  (It will be next Wed - 12/10 - before I get it tho.  He lives about 50 mi away, and I won't see him before his next lesson.

Altho my favorite composer is Bach and my "desert island" piece is Handel's MESSIAH, if I had the works only one composer on my desert island, it definitely would be Mozart.  If you've not delved into his stuff, do yourself a favor!  As I tell my students, "Nobody doesn't like Mozart." (Apologies to Sara Lee!)

Altho Haydn wasn't well=pleased with Beethoven's independent thot and unorthodox approach to classical forms, they severed the teacher/student relationship bcs Haydn was unreliable about showing up to lessons!  But, yes, I definitely agree that H had a huge impact on B.  So did Mozart and Bach.

About 12/12, send me another post.  I will have an answer for you by then.
mb

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QUESTION: ah, well, as for mozart, all too often he just charms your pants off without really having much to say, bu the best of mozart is so mind-bendingly great that i can live with the elevator music. there is a lot of it, too. the c major quintet is a favorite, even though I feel like I've had a tough gym workout when it's over. I think we owe a big debt to van Swieten for introducing mozart especially to the muic of bach. this influence is clear in his Vienna work, and I suspect led to his greatest work I could go on about this, but I'll just say that Mozart learned from bach how to employ dissonance, for which he (mozart0 was roundly criticized. And yes, clearly Beethoven, too, but this element is missing in Haydn.

I am not particularly an opera fan, but I had to choose one mozart work it would be the marriage of figaro. it summarizes best what makes mozart great. and, yes, bach is hiding there, too.  

btw I got into haydn more seriously froma remark an acquaintance made that haydn was horribly underrated, and also reading a comment from mozart much tot he same effect.

as for bach, I don't really understand baroque music as well as classical period, but I admire bach immensely.

I'm trying the link again, just in case...

http://uploading.com/files/LE43CJGS/Haydn_ Symphony No. 97 in C major 4. Finale, Presto Assai - 08.mp3.html

ANSWER: Ok, Phil, I listened many times.  There are a couple options, and I think a case could be made for any of them.

1)Basically A and A' and A'', etc. with a lot of what we call "episodic material" (filler, transition material) + coda.
2)Rondo + coda.
3)Sonata allegro form except B section is quite compressed + coda.

This is the best I can do for you! The next step is to find a score.  It's probably available in a condensed form in "Norton miniature scores."  Or try Wiki and see what you can turn up.  Also search on "structure" with the mv name, symphony name (Hob. # it's listed - the recording my student lent me does not have this info), and any other identifying characteristics.  You MIGHT be able to get some info from "orchestral excerpts", which is a book often used as audition material for orchestral seat gigs.  Get a violin edition.

HOpe this is at least some help.
mb

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: belated thanks for your comments. here are a couple of things you might find interesting:

http://imslp.org/wiki/Main_Page

for scores (not this one, though)

and, if you have $150 to spare, a very large chunk of Haydn's output.

http://www.daedalusbooks.com/Products/Detail.asp?ProductID=69358&Media=Music&Sub

if that didn't come through go to salebooks.com and search for Haydn. a buck a cd wasn't bad, and the performances are good to excellent. needless to say I haven't listened to that huge a chunk. some things are probably beyond the limit of the average listener, like the baryton trios and the folk song settings, but I've found very little so far that has been a waste of time.

Happy new year,

Phil Obley

Answer
Thanks for link.

DO listen to the baryton trios.  They are SUBLIME!!! (Also, have you listened to Schubert's arpeggione sonata?  Another superstar.  Don't get it played by cello; find an arpeggione recording.)


Don't know about the folk song settings.  Depends, I guess, on what the "orchestration" is.  If voix, maybe not so interesting.  I never heard any Haydn I didn't like, tho I'd have to say that some of his operas are boring (libretto, that is; not the music IN the opera).
mb