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Coin and Paper Money Collecting/5 fr 1865
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Hello, Dmitry.
)
This is Gulnara who asked you about Spanish coin. I bought a few coins. This coin is 5 Fr., year 1865 and I would like to know if it is fake and its price if it is not fake. I am sending you the picture of it but I would also like to know how to distinguish the fake coins related to the XIX-XX century from the original ones?
Thank you.
G.
Hi Gulnara,
This one may be another upset, since I can tell you just by eye that this is definitely a modern counterfeit of a rare Swiss "shooting thaler". These were made for various years and cities that hosted the "Schutzenfests" from the 1850's up to the early 1900's. I collect this series myself, and this is one of the few that I have been unable to get my hands on (an original unc. one, that is). The reason I can tell your coin is not genuine is by looking at the details, notice how the hair of the seated woman looks perfect, but the child's hair is worn? Typically it would be the opposite, since the woman's hair is higher in profile than the center of the coin. The same can be seen on the reverse - the top and bottom of the horse are weak while the highest point, the shoulder, is strong. This is a weak strike, which the Swiss mint officials would have never let slip for these commemorative coins. This weakness of detail is something you almost always see on modern replicas.
In addition, you can always check the weight - this is a crown sized coin and should be the same size and weight as a regular issue 5 francs of that period (25 grams).
One way you can tell a modern fake, aside from weight, is to look at the rim. Many counterfeits are cast, rather than struck in a die. As a result, the rim will often have imperfection that look different from damage such as dings and scratches. On the reverse of your coin, I can see a slight circular line around the top of the edge, this is also a clue that it's a cast counterfeit. Moreover, the entire edge looks kind of rounded when it should be flat and some of the denticles running around the edge are full while some are not.
The surface may also have a rough look, almost like tiny bubbles had formed and popped on the surface (this is exactly what happens when they cast these coins). You can also try smelling the coin, the modern fakes have an almost sickening chemical smell, while the real silver ones either have no smell (for an original, clean and lustrous coin) or a sour, sulfur like sour smell (for those with dark patina). If a clean and shiny coin has a sulfur-like smell, that is evidence of a cleaning with chemical solution.
Finally, you can compare the sound that the coin makes when you drop it on its edge. Compare that with other coins of the same size, which you already know are genuine. If the sounds is off, that means the density is not the same, which in turn means that it's not the same silver material.
The listed values for this coin run from $60 in lower grade to $500 in uncirculated condition. But good luck trying to find them for that price, many dealers charge 2x or more, especially for a really nice uncirculated example. This one would have been a VF, which lists for $95 and would sell in the $200 range. There were only 10,000 made, many of which are in private collections.
I see you are located in Turkey. You will come across many counterfeits there, since Turkey is one of the primary places that counterfeit ancient coins are made. The ones like yours mostly come from China and Southeast Asia.
Thanks again and happy hunting! =)
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Coin and Paper Money Collecting
Answers by Expert:
Dmitry Livshits
Expertise
My specialty is world coins from the 18th to 20th centuries, primarily non-US foreign coins and related areas such as errors and exonumia (tokens, medals, etc.). I can answer questions relating to identification, grading, selling, preservation and evaluation of such items. In addition to catalog value, I can give you the practical market value and trends for specific types of coins. I will also take questions regarding counterfeits (both modern and antique) and on how to identify them. I am NOT knowledgeable in paper money/banknotes, ancient or "shipwreck" coins. Thank you.
Experience
Collector of world coins since early childhood. Access to a variety of auction records and reference material. You can also find me on Facebook.
Education/Credentials
A.S. in Psychology (2006), B.A. in Forensic Psychology (2008), M.A. in Forensic Psychology (2011).
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