Expert: Rabbi Barry Dov Lerner - 1/8/2006

Question
Thank you again Rabbi,

One more thing though. When you said "We know that it was edited in Babylonia and the final versions - note the plural of versions - weren't completed until the 10th or 11th century in the Masoretic version.

The Kittel compendium lists multiple manuscript traditions which supports the above."

What did you mean by 'multiple versions'? What are the names of these multiple versions?

What did you mean by 'multiple manuscript traditions'? What are the names of these multiple manuscript traditions? Is multiple manuscript traditions the same as multiple versions?

Sincerely,
Paul


-------------------------
Followup To
Question -
Thank you for your answer Rabbi,

You said that "Jews historically has not, does not and will not execute apostates to any other religion or no religion."

But what about the verses I quoted

"17:2 [This is what you must do] when you discover a man or woman doing evil in the eyes of God your Lord in one of the settlements that God your Lord is giving you. [That person] will have violated [God's] covenant
17:3 by going and worshiping or bowing down to the sun, moon or other heavenly bodies, whose [worship] I prohibited.
17:4 When it is told to you, you must listen and carefully interrogate [the witnesses]. If the accusation is established to be true, and this revolting practice has been done in Israel,
17:5 you shall take that man or woman who did the wicked act out to your gates. You shall then pelt the man or woman to death with stones."
(Deuteronomy 17:2-5 http://bible.ort.org/books/pentd2.asp?ACTION=displaypage&BOOK=5&CHAPTER=17)

don't they prescribe death as the punishment for apostacy from Judaism?

I will check out in jewishencyclopedia.com online and hopefully "The Encyclopedia Judaica in the public library too.

But i would like an answer to the above question please

best wishes too,
Paul

-------------------------
Followup To
Question -
Dear Rabbi Barry Dov Lerner,

I am not a Jew, but I would like to ask a few questions about Judaism if that is ok?

Can you please explain the following verses from Deuteronomy

"17:2 [This is what you must do] when you discover a man or woman doing evil in the eyes of God your Lord in one of the settlements that God your Lord is giving you. [That person] will have violated [God's] covenant
17:3 by going and worshiping or bowing down to the sun, moon or other heavenly bodies, whose [worship] I prohibited.
17:4 When it is told to you, you must listen and carefully interrogate [the witnesses]. If the accusation is established to be true, and this revolting practice has been done in Israel,
17:5 you shall take that man or woman who did the wicked act out to your gates. You shall then pelt the man or woman to death with stones."
(Deuteronomy 17:2-5 http://bible.ort.org/books/pentd2.asp?ACTION=displaypage&BOOK=5&CHAPTER=17)

Questions
1) Do these verses mean that if anyone left Judaism for a pagan religion they have been stoned?

2) What if a Jew became an agnostic, or an atheist? Would they have been stoned?

3) What if he was still a believer in monotheism but left Judaism? Would they have been stoned?

4) What if he believed in Zoroastrianism (assuming that Zoroatrianism was montheistic), Would they have been stoned?

5) How would you defend these verses to someone who claimed they were unjust, cruel, against free will and even evil?

6) Why don't Jews follow these punishments these days (such as the one I am asking questions on, stoning adulterers and other such punishments in the books of Moses)?

7) When did Jews stop following these punishments  (such as the one I am asking questions on, stoning adulterers and other such punishments in the books of Moses)?

one of the reasons i ask these questions is in Islam, the punishment for leaving Islam is death, so if a Muslim leaves Islam to become a Christian or a Jew, the punishment is death! I find the Islamic punishment, to be cruel, against free will,unjust and evil.

8) Would it be ok if I ask any further questions on Judaism in the future (possibly on this topic and.or other topics)?

Hope i havent offended you and hope you can help,

Shalom,
Paul
Answer -
Dear Paul,

Thanks for writing.

You've asked far more than the customary single question, even with several parts.

In brief, we know nothing for certain about the practices of ancient Israel with regard to apostasy; we only have narrative in an early part of the Bible describing a practice "as if" it were indeed a practice.

Once the ancient Jewish kingdom was conquered by Babylonia, from then until the Second Temple was destroyed it is a question whether Jews had the legal right to execute capital criminals, and that would include for religious "crimes."

Certainly under Roman occupation they did not have that right or privilege no matter who was appointed governor or king.

Jews historically has not, does not and will not execute apostates to any other religion or no religion. This is quite different from the history of Judaism's two daughter religions of Christianity and Islam, both of which have long histories of claiming to be the only truth and executing those who would disagree.

Please note that symbols of both Judaism and Christianity were forbidden in Saudi Arabia as were Christmas trees and menorahs. The State of Israel provides Christmas trees to Christians for free, in contrast.

Regarding other questions, please limit them to single questions and I would ask that you read first, perhaps background in jewishencyclopedia.com online or "The Encyclopedia Judaica in the public library.

Best wishes in your studies and reading.

Rabbi Dov
Answer -
Dear Paul,

I appreciate your reading of the text, but it is - even if revealed in antiquity - has been passed on by human beings whom we know have edited and redacted for centuries. We know that it was edited in Babylonia and the final versions - note the plural of versions - weren't completed until the 10th or 11th century in the Masoretic version.

The Kittel compendium lists multiple manuscript traditions which supports the above.

If however one wishes to read the text from a literal or fundamentalist point of view - that is as if it is literal history, then we are on a different page in answering your question. You need to ask an Orthodox Rabbi.

For my point of view, to repeat, we have a description of what was prescribed for such acts as apostasy in the Bible. We have Talmudic evidence and reports 1000-1500 years later that demonstrate that executions were not the punishment for agnosticism if not apostasy.

Good luck and I really can't go further with the topic.

Rabbi Dov

Answer
Dear Paul,

There are multiple versions in the Septuagint, the Greek translation, that exist in multiple manuscript verions. Simiarly for Aramaic, Hebrew and Syriac manuscripts.

Please note that some variations in the text are the result of mistakes in copying by the scribes - they see one line, write the line and then look back and skip a line or word and continue writing. The next scribe sees a text that is corrupt or meaningless and attempts to "fix" it.

Soem copyists may have deliberately introduced changes because of individual beliefs, the community in which he lived, the politics of the community, etc.

The Kittel volume is available in Bible libraries and there are too many manuscript variations and versions to list. Now that we have the Geniza finding, Dead Sea Scrolls, Nag Mamadi library we have even more variations to consider as we understand the Hebrew Scriptures.

Best wishes

Rabbi Dov