Expert: Elder Greg Madden - 3/21/2007

Question
QUESTION: I recently read one of your past responses and got to the end of it and found this statement:

So my answer to you is that if a person is not truly born-again, then they are not a Christian, no matter what they call themselves (baptist or catholic). And since the catholic church does not teach the true Gospel message, it would be difficult (if not impossible) for someone who follows it’s teachings to be a true born-again (saved) Christian.

Do you think such arrogance and judgement are evidences of your Christianity or your humanity?

ANSWER: MM,

Good to hear from you again! I apologize if I have offended you in any way. It is not my intention to be offensive, but to speak the truth in love.

You accuse me of "arrogance". But I call it confidence.

You accuse me of "judgment". But I call speaking the truth.

You say that this somehow makes me less of a Christian, or even less human? Let us see what the Holy Bible has to say about that...

Eph. 4:15
But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Prov. 27:5
Open rebuke is better than secret love.

Gal. 1:6
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
1:7
Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
1:8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.  
1:9
As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Not to mention the many times in Scripture when Christ spoke against false teachers and teachings. He loved them enough to speak out against what they were teaching. I am only trying to do the same.

MM, I am have come across harshly, that was not my intent. But I will not apologize for what I said. It is truth. I believe I have said this to you before, but I will say it again. The catholic church is a backslidden church that is so watered down with false doctrines and the traditions of men, that what little truth of God's Word is taught only a precious few receive a true born-again experience. And then those who do are faced with the problem of staying in error, or leaving to follow truth.

Hope this clears things up MM.
Elder Greg

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: So Greg,

Since there are about 1.5-2 billion christians in the world, and over a billion are Catholic or of an Eastern rite in communion with the Catholic church, and around 300 million are Eastern Orthodox believers.  Plus there are around 500 million protestant believers of them 340 million come from traditional background i.e. Anglican, Lutheran, Presbyterian etc.  This leaves a paltry few in the grand scheme of things who believe as you.  I know you will say narrow is the way and few who choose it......but to say that Catholics are not "saved" is to believe that Orthodox believers are not saved, Anglican believers are not saved....Lutheran believers are not saved...you find yourself playing God saying who is and who is not saved.  If you want to hear truth, that is truth.  Judging ones eternal destination or there "salvation" is not yours to do it is the Lords.  I know you think what you believe is the absolute correct truth, but every verse you posted could be applied to your beliefs as well taken in the context of when your church's beliefs started.  Pentacostels are a fairly recent group on the christian scene. The "bible only" believers are also fairly new especially since no where in the bible does it say follow this book alone.  To quote 1 Timothy 3:16 is also not going to cut it because nowhere in the inspiration verse does it say "alone".  The bible says what scripture is good for but nowhere in the good book does it say follow it alone.  The good book does say the "church" is the pillar and foundation of truth.  It also says the church was founded upon the apostles and the prophets with Christ as its "cornerstone" or "capstone".  Your beliefs of "Sola Scriptura" or "Sola Fide" could be classified as "another gospel" in that they were never taught for over 1500 years of the Church's first 1500.  I know you think you are doing "good" and rebuking in love. I would say your rebukes come from ignorance not love.  To say others are going to hell because they do not hold the same interpretations is downright wrong for a Christian to do.  I challenge you to look into the past history and find one person that the Catholic Church has said is in hell or going to hell.  Give me a name and a reference of which Catholic Church official said it.  I will tell you even the Catholic Church does not say who is or who is not going to hell.  But you have.  Think about it.

Answer
MM,

I apologize for the late reply. Things have been rather busy around here. Hope you
understand. :-)

Mr Nall, once again let me please reiterate that I am in no way trying to be
offensive, or judgmental. I am sorry to read the harsh words in your reply. It seems
to me that perhaps you have been hurt or disappointed by someone claiming the Truth
such as I. I pray that whatever wounds you have received will be healed by the power
of the Holy Spirit. That He would truly be to you a Comforter.

MM, in our previous discussions we tended to argue over issues instead of discussing
them. If you truly wish to discuss the issues you brought up in your last reply,
that is fine. As long as we both "discuss" this issues in a civil manner. Agreed?

Whatever your discussion, I will briefly address the things you wrote.

1. The Bible clearly teaches that if ANYONE is not born-again they will not inherit
the kingdom of God (go to heaven). It matters not if you call yourself a Catholic,
Lutheran, Orthodox, Baptist, or yes even a Pentecostal! Only born-again, saved,
redeemed, Christians are going to heaven.

Gal. 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus
Christ might be given to them that believe.

2. It sounds to me from what you wrote that you are saying that everyone is going to
heaven. Whatever they call themselves. Am I to say that Muslims are going to
heaven? What of the Hindus, Buddhists, or for that matter atheists? I will judge no
one as to their personal standing with the Lord. But if they are not born-again,
then they are already judge no matter what I or anyone else may say.

3. The church was founded upon the apostles and the prophets... And by this the Holy
Bible means that what the Apostles and prophets wrote as they were inspired by the
Holy Ghost...

Rom. 16:26
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the
commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of
faith:

Eph. 3:5
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed
unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

2 Tim. 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for
reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

But even the prophets are to be judged by, and subject to the Holy Scriptures...

1 Cor. 14:29
Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

1 John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God:
because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Deuteronomy 13:1
If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign
or a wonder,  
13:2
And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us
go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;  
13:3
Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams:
for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with
all your heart and with all your soul.

MM, where do you go to find the truth about life's most critical issues? There is
only one source that will never mislead you, never deceive you or try to control
you. It is Christ and His Word

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way , the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the
Father, but by me.  

John 17:17
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

John 8:31
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then
are ye my disciples indeed;  
8:32
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.  
 

4. You asked "I challenge you to look into the past history and find one person that
the Catholic Church has said is in hell or going to hell.  Give me a name and a
reference of which Catholic Church official said it."

Will this due?

Catechism of the Catholic church...

1035. The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity.
Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend
into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 The chief
punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the
life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church
Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ
the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a
pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and
the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He
himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed
at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as
through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church
was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or
to remain in it.336

Then there are several popes who also condemns people to hell...

Source: Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.
"There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is
saved."  

Source: Papal BullUnam Sanctam, by Pope Boniface VIII, 1302. "We declare, say,
define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every
human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

Source: Papal Bull Cantate Domino , by Pope Eugene IV, 1441.
"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of
those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and
heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go
into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before
death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this
ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the
sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal
recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety
and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it
may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved,
unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church."

I hope that address the issues you brought up. If you would like to continue our
"discussion" let me know. But one last favor. If you do write back please erase the
privious replys. If you do not, then it becomes rather lengthy and hard to read. You
have this option, but I do not. Looking forward to hearing from you.

Elder Greg Madden