Expert: Elder Greg Madden - 6/16/2006

Question
Galatians 4:13-14 "...you know that it was because of a physical illness that I originally preached the gospel to you, and you did not show disdain or contempt because of the trial caused you by my physical condition, but rather you received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus". It is assumed that Paul's physical condition was an eye problem because he goes on in verse 15 to say "Where now is that blessedness of yours? Indeed, I can testify to you that, if it had been possible, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me". So obviously one of God's saints had to suffer from physical illness. And you didn't answer the other verse I cited (2 Cor 12:7-10), about the thorn in his flesh. You just objected that it wasn't referring to an eye problem.
     Well, it sure covers you legally if you don't prevent people from seeing doctors. But that doesn't say much for your faith in God's healing power.
     As far as Bible verses talking about Christians being sick, I just cited two. I wouldn't expect many more, since the fact of Christians' sickness is such an obvious phenomena. And I wasn't being tongue-in-cheek about the Pentecostals being the healthiest denomination. If you people really had access to God's healing power, wouldn't it logically follow that you'd all be the healthiest?
    I eagerly await your independent verification of a Pentecostal divine healing.
         

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Followup To


Answer

Thanks,
Elder Greg


Answer -
Johann,
Thanks for the clarification. It helps a lot. Like you I to believe in miracles, and like you said, no one can prove a miracle. I will direct you to a couple of sites where testimonies of healings are given. In my own life experiences, I could give you anecdotal evidence of several healings that I have personally witnessed. But as you said earlier, there is no way to prove them. And you know Joann, I don’t need proof that Jesus heals, I simply know that He does!
Let me address the other issues you brought up.

1. “… not by us demanding it of him like at some Pentecostal extravaganza, and Pentecostals have completely undermined their credibility in this area by so much obvious gullibility, outright lies and Biblical manipulation”.
The catholic church is not innocent when it comes to manipulation and deception either.  Yes there are those who would classify themselves as Pentecostal. But that does not mean that they are. As to “demanding” healing, we call it “standing upon the Word of God”. If He said it in His Word, then He is still the same.
1Peter 2:24  “Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.”
James 5:14  “Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:”
Heb. !3:8 “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and

Answer -
Johann,
Thank you for not taking my responses harshly. I do believe that scripture would have us reason together.
Isa. 1:18  “Come now, and let us reason together…”
Let me try to answer your latest questions one at a time.

1. “Pentecostals cite the verses you mentioned but ignore Paul's complaint about a thorn in his flesh (2 Corinthians 12:7-10) as well as his eye problems.”
I do not speak for all Pentecostals (just as I am sure you do not speak for all catholic’s), but the scripture you sited does not teach that Paul had a sickness that God would not remove. Read the text careful Johann. It does not say that the thorn in Paul’s flesh was eye problems. This is apart of so-called church history. I am not saying that Paul did, or did not have problems with his eyes. But I am saying that no where in scripture does it say that he did.
Pentecostals believe that it is Gods will to heal. That sickness is a part of the Adamic curse. And that all good things come from God, and all evil things from satan.
James 1:17  “Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.”

2. “I believe Paul also recommended natural remedies to Timothy to ease his stomach”
As you site this text (1 Tim. 5:23), we as Pentecostals believe this is one of the scriptures that shows that doctors and medication are acceptable for the believer.

3. “There are also several other verses talking about how the Faithful can expect sickness and persecution in this life”
I agree with the persecution, but please show me one place in scripture where God Himself places sickness and dieses on His children.

4. “Are Pentecostals more healthy than any other denominations?”  

Answer
Johann,

I am sorry that it has taken me this long to get back with you. I am still very busy at work, but I did want to let you know that I will get back to you soon. I am working on the documentation of healings that you requested. I did not want there to be any doubt as to their validity, so the documentation is taking longer than I had planed. Please bear with me.

In you last correspondence you had brought up a couple of things I would like to briefly address.

1. "...It is assumed that Paul's physical condition was an eye problem...So obviously one of God's saints had to suffer from physical illness."

Gal. 4:13 "Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first."
Infirmity means weakness, caused through much persecution and the temptation of pride, not sickness.
4:15 "And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus."
Note he said temptation, not sickness.  
4:15 "Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them  to me."
You assume too much in saying this proved his eyes were bad. This a euphemism denoting their undying love for the Apostle Paul, and their willingness to do anything for him.

2. " And you didn't answer the other verse I cited (2 Cor. 12:7-10), about the thorn in his flesh. You just objected that it wasn't referring to an eye problem."

2 Cor. 12:7-10
"7.And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.  
8.For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.  
9.And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.  
10.Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong."

Once again you assume too much. Paul said nothing about his eye's. Scripture interprets scripture. Note what Paul wrote clarifying himself in vs.10. Here he list's what the "thorn in the flesh" was.

A. Infirmities; weakness of the flesh caused by temptations.
B. Reproaches; a wrong springing from insolence, an injury, affront, and insults.
C. Necessities; necessity, imposed either by the circumstances, or by law of duty regarding to one's advantage, argument, calamity, or distress.
D. Persecutions; which are obvious through his ministry.
E. Distresses; dire calamity and extreme affliction.

3. "If you people really had access to God's healing power, wouldn't it logically follow that you'd all be the healthiest?"
Johann, your logic in this if flawed. Using this same logic, we would have to say that any sect that did not believe in Christ should be (by your logic) the unhealthiest. In my research I find that buddhist are the most physically healthy. They obviously are not followers of the Lord Jesus, so why are they so healthy? They are bound by demonic oppression, yet are physically fit?

Let me also make myself very clear Johann. I do not believe that miracles (whether verified or not) are a sign of God's approval. The Scripture teaches us that there are false prophets that have, and still do, perform miracles. But the Bible also admonishes not to follow these people unless the also teach/preach the truth of God (Deut. 13:1-5).
So even if the catholic church should claim verification of a miracle by one of it's "so-called" saints, because it demands it's followers to worship idols, pray to the dead, and teaches many other false doctrines, then God's people should not follow it's teachings and ordinance’s. My admonition to you Johann is to continue to seek truth, and leave the catholic church.

I will get back with you as soon as possible, but I felt that I should at least address these issues.
Elder Greg