Expert: Elder Greg Madden - 6/23/2007

Question
QUESTION: Elder Greg,
Hello there! I am a 23 year old, born-again Christian. I was saved June 25, 2001, and since then, I have tried to live every day for Christ.
Lately, I have had some questions regarding the Protestant faith.  This all started after a conversation with a Catholic friend of mine.  He cleared up several misconceptions I had about the Catholic faith, and was even able to answer many of the difficult questions I posed from the Bible (questions that my Protestant friends had not been able to sufficiently answer.)
As a result of my uncertainty, I turned to where any questioning young person would nowadays – the Internet.  I happened to come across your site, and I was intrigued by many of the posts, especially the correspondence between you and a man named “Edward.”  After reading his posts and your responses, I felt (and still feel) that his arguments were much better substantiated than your own.  I cannot tell you how much I wanted you to prove him wrong; but I felt that you were unable to do so.  His post from January 8 was able to clarify any doubts I had regarding the Eucharist and the doctrine of sola fide.  Why have you not written back to him? Please do so; I’d love to hear what you have to say in response to his arguments.
 This may not be something you’d like to hear, considering you’re an “expert” of anti-Catholicism, but your site has actually made me think seriously about converting to Catholicism! If you are able to refute Edward’s arguments, and the tenants of Catholicism, please do so. If you are not able to, please let me know, and I will be converting next spring.

Sincerely,

EAB


ANSWER: EAB,

Christian greetings! Thank you for the opportunity to share with you the good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I was thrilled to read that you had by "coincidence" come across this web site, and just by "coincidence" happened to find a category that fits the situation your in, and just by "coincidence" happened to contact myself. Thank God for "coincidences"!

As to my reply to Edward, just by "coincidences" I had the chance to give him a brief reply to his last question yesterday. Though it has yet to be posted for public view yet. It usually takes a day or two to post, so please check back. I am not sure if it will be a sufficient answer for you, but this is a busy time of the year for me, so I had to give him a brief reply.

EAB, I would like to first commend you on your willingness to examine your faith. Unlike many false religions, true Biblical Christianity is able to withstand scrutiny. Understand this, your answers do not rest solely upon my answers, but upon the Truth of God's Word. My opinions, man's theories, church traditions, and religious ideology  all are fallible. But it is in the Holy Bible that we find our ONLY infallible guide and rule of our faith and practice.

Secondly, if you don't mind, I would like to ask you a three questions that would help me understand what you are going through, and to help me better address the issues you are concernd about.

1. You wrote that "...a 23 year old, born-again Christian. I was saved June 25, 2001...". What exactly do you mean by being "born again"? This may seem like a basic question, but I'm sure you would agree it is eternally important.

2. You then wrote "...I have had some questions regarding the Protestant faith..." What are this questions?

3. You also wrote "...He cleared up several misconceptions I had about the Catholic faith.." What are these so-called misconceptions?

EAB, once again thank you for your willingness to search for the Truth. I look forward to hearing from you.

Elder Greg Madden
http://www.forministry.com/USOKPENTEMMM1

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hello Greg,
 Thanks for the response. First, I'll answer the three questions you asked me. The first question is "What do I mean by being born again?" Well, on June 25, 2001, I met and prayed with a group of Christians. I acknowledged that I was a sinner, I asked for God's forgiveness, and I accepted Him as my personal Lord and Savior, vowing to live my life for Him and not for myself.
Regarding the Protestant faith, I have been questioning several issues. One is how most Prostestant denominations claim to follow the "Bible alone," but yet still disagree on so many issues. If we didn't need a central authority to interpret scripture, wouldn't Christians be united in doctrine by a self-interpreting Bible? But as it is today, there are so many divisions, each of them claiming to have the "truth." Another question I've been struggling with is how some Protestants feel that being saved by grace gives them the right to do whatever they want, because no matter what, they're still saved. Isn't praying the sinner's prayer still "doing something?"
Misconceptions that I had about the Catholic faith were that Catholics thought we had to earn our salvation, that statues were idols, that Catholics don't read the Bible, that Catholics worship Mary, and that sacraments were unnecessary and unbiblical. I used to believe all of these things when I attended a Baptist church, but learning about the Catholic faith from a Catholic perspective is much different than how Protestants understand and view it from the outside.
I've been taught that Catholics believe we're saved by grace alone, but that it is through faith and works that we appropriate, or accept God's grace.  How is that unbiblical, considering that so many verses stress the need for personal holiness?
Also, it just doesn't seem logical that God would inspire the authors of the Bible through the Holy Spirit, but then not leave the Spirit to guide the Church.  After all, isn't the Church "the pillar and foundation of truth"?
I'd appreciate your feedback...more and more I am feeling called to Catholicism, and I need to know if this is where God really wants me.
Evelyn  

Answer
Evelyn,

I was just wondering if you recieved this follow-up reply I sent? Hope that you did, but if not here it is again. Please let me know if you have any questions.

Elder Greg

------------------------------------------------------

Evelyn,

Thank you for answering my questions. This does clear up several things. I will do my best to answer the issues you brought up one at a time. However, I do council you not to make any decisions based upon anything other that the Word of God, and the leading of the Holy Spirit. Agreed?

Before I do, I want to thank you (and the Lord Jesus Christ) for sharing your testimony of receiving true Bible salvation. I was thrilled after reading about how you made Him your personal Lord and Savior. Not very many young ladies your age are willing to follow the Lord such as
yourself. This is the most critical difference between true Biblical salvation and the salvation taught by Rome. I will explain this more when I address what the catholic church teaches as it's means of
salvation.

Also, before you read my replies I would ask you to not take any of these as hateful or mean-spirited. I have volunteered in this category not to "land blast" and "bad mouth" the Roman catholic church. On the contrary. It is my fondest hope to see those who are blindly following Rome and it's false teachings to come to the same personal relationship with Jesus Christ that you and I have experienced. And please forgive the length of this reply. You have several questions, and I believe you deserve to have them answered thoroughly. Now to your issues...

1. "One is how most Protestant denominations claim to follow the "Bible alone," but yet still disagree on so many issues."

This is a sad truth Evelyn. Though the catholic church is not except from disagreements either. Within the ranks of the followers of Rome you will find a myriad of doctrines, theories, sect’s, and factions. Though Rome claims to be unified, the evidence points otherwise. But even if this were not the case (which it is), does unification denote Biblical truth? If this were the case, then the Mormon church, Jehovah Witnesses, or even Islam itself would be far more suited to represent "unity". This is a case of the kettle calling the pot black.

2. "If we didn't need a central authority to interpret scripture,
wouldn't Christians be united in doctrine by a self-interpreting Bible?"

You are correct when you said that the Bible is "self-interpreting". Scripture must always interpret Scripture. This does not mean that very Believer is to have his own doctrines and beliefs. The Bible teaches us that God (not man, or men's traditions) has set (placed) Biblical
offices to perfect the church. These are the five-fold ministry gifts: apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers.

Eph. 4:8-12

And the Lord has given each born-again Believer His Holy Spirit to lead and guide us into all truth.

John 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

(While I am on the subject of the Spirit, I was wondering if you have received the baptism of the Holy Ghost since you believed? Or perhaps you have never heard of this. In either case, to keep this from getting too long, I have linked our ministry web site below. If you are
interested, there is a page that explains this subject in detail.)

3 "...how some Protestants feel that being saved by grace gives them the right to do whatever they want, because no matter what, they're still saved."

I could not agree with you more! This is the false doctrine of
unconditional eternal security, commonly termed
"once-saved-always-saved". Though you are correct that this teaching is predominantly protestant, many catholic would also fall into this same trap. Though Rome does not teach this, it's teachings of penance and indulgences have had the same effect.

Allow me to quote from our articles of faith...

"We believe the Christian will be persevered unto the end and be saved because of the power of Gods grace pledged for their support. We believe any saved person who has sinned (backslidden), but has a desire to repent, may do so and be restored to God's favor and fellowship.
However, since man continues to have free choice, it is possible because of temptations and the weakness of human flesh for him to fall into the practice of sin and to make shipwreck of his faith and be lost once again."
Scripture References: 1 Timothy 1:18,19; John 15:1-7; Colossians
1:21-23; Hebrews 3:14; 2 Peter 2:20,21

What the Bible teaches us is to live a holy, sanctified life before God. Not legalism, but a true, heart felt desire to please God in everything we do. It is God's Will that we should be sanctified daily and be made partakers of His holiness, walking not after the flesh, but after the Spirit, forsaking the very appearance of evil.

Rom. 8:1,5; 12:1-2

4. "Isn't praying the sinner's prayer still "doing something?"

I am not quite sure what you are asking here. Perhaps a "faith-works" issue. Please let me know.

5. "...that Catholics thought we had to earn our salvation..."

In order to understand the Roman Catholic religion one must begin with the Roman Catholic Sacraments. Roman Catholics are taught to trust in their priests who perform religious rituals called Sacraments. There are seven sacraments in the Roman Catholic religion. Since one is Holy Orders, for a celibate priesthood, and another is Holy Matrimony, no one person can take all the Sacraments. According to the Roman Catholic Catechism Sacraments are necessary for salvation:

“The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New
Covenant are necessary for salvation.” New Catholic Catechism. Paragraph # 1129.

Christians remain unconvinced that Roman Catholic Sacraments are
necessary for salvation. The Roman Catholic sacramental scheme is
alleged to be constructed upon the Bible. However, in the Roman Catholic religion, there are other sources of authority equal to the Bible. Hence, proof for the seven Sacraments of Rome does not necessarily need to rest upon Scripture. Rome’s doctrine of Sola Ecclesia (the Church alone) establishes and defines doctrine.

Christians, trusting in the Bible alone for salvation and
sanctification, understand that heaven is given to lost sinners on the basis of faith alone in the finished work of Jesus Christ alone. Such faith consists in confidence that Christ alone, at His cross, suffered and died for all of the sins of His Church which is the Body of Christ. Such a faith completely trusts in the promises of God in Christ Jesus. One such assurance is eternal forgiveness of all sins and punishments based entirely upon the satisfaction of Christ’s death. Such a faith takes the righteousness of Christ as the complete ground of
justification. Such a faith grasps Christ’s righteousness immediately. Christians believe there is only One mediator between God and man and that is Jesus Christ. Christians also believe there is no mediator between them and Jesus Christ. The Roman Catholic religion believes itself to be the mediator between man and Jesus Christ. But Christians cannot conceive of a “go-between” and deny the necessity of a “a middle man” between poor lost sinners and Jesus Himself!

Hence, the entire Roman Catholic sacramental system is inappropriate and in the way when seen in the light of the Christian’s direct access to God via a direct route to Jesus.

Let us therefore draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and may find grace to help in time of need. Hebrews 4:16.

This drawing near with confidence is through faith alone based upon confidence in what Christ has done for His people. It is not in the least dependent upon faithfulness to a sacramental program or contingent upon a priestly class of men. Christian access to God is immediate, free and clear paved solely by the blood of Christ alone.

In contrast, Roman Catholics have a great deal of confidence that the mediatorial intervention of the Roman Catholic hierarchy will not fail to guide them into the truth of God’s Word. Not willing to examine the teaching of the Bible on their own; Roman Catholics place explicit trust in their religious leaders to guide them toward heaven. This is a fatal and eternal mistake. The Bible does not teach Rome’s sacramental
salvation.


6. "...that statues were idols.."

Though catholics would say that these images of "saints" that they pray to is not idolatry, the very fact that they pray to/toward/with it as the object of their faith, is the very definition of idolatry. There are so many Scriptures against this pagan practice that it would take up to much room to list them. A better suggestion is to have the catholic church give the Scriptural text that would vilify this practice. Agreed?

7. "...that Catholics don't read the Bible..."

This may or may not be the case. Too many are guilty of this not matter what they call themselves. Though it is my personal experience that most catholics tend to depend upon the words of their priest more than the Word of God.

8. "...that Catholics worship Mary..."

This is technically correct. Mary is not "worshipped". Though catholics are guilty of the un-Biblical practice of necromancy (communicating with the dead). This practice is strictly forbidden in Scripture. And all who try to communicate with the dead, be them passed Believers or
un-believers, are practicing necromancy. The Bible clearly teaches us that there is only ONE mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ.

1 Tim. 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;  

9. "...that sacraments were unnecessary and unbiblical..."

It is very sobering to consider that most of Rome’s biblical
justification for her Sacraments comes from one or two misinterpreted and misapplied Bible verses. For instance, virtually all of Rome’s teaching on regeneration, baptism and justification comes from her “sacramental approach” to John 3:5. I would point out that John 3:1-10 does not mention infants, baptism, justification or the non-biblical term “sacrament.” Yet, it is from John 3:5 that Rome insists the Spirit of God can be manipulated through the use of water in a priest’s hands to forgive original sin in infants and start the process of
justification. All of this is based upon the erroneous assumption that the water of John 3:5 must refer to Christian baptism. Christian baptism then is to be administered by adult priests in order to cleanse infants from sin. Consider John 3:5 and its surrounding context. Does it teach the foundational pillar of Roman Catholic sacramental salvation?

Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John 3:5

There are fully five satisfactory Christian explanations of the meaning of water in this verse. In the light of the rest of the Bible, Roman Catholic infant baptism, for forgiveness of sins, to start a process of an incremental justification, is not one of them. This passage has been reviewed extensively in Christian literature.

Furthermore, examine Acts 8:17. This passage of Scripture is offered by Rome to support their Sacrament of Confirmation. There is not a word in the rest of the New Testament about the necessity of laying on of hands for the receptivity of the Holy Spirit. Even so, this passage does not teach us Roman Catholic Confirmation or the necessity of “hands” for the reception of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit cannot be manipulated by religious mediators to leave an alleged “imprint on the heart” of those participating in Roman Catholic Confirmation.

Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were
receiving the Holy Spirit. Acts 8:14-17

The Apostles from Jerusalem, in laying hands upon the people of Samaria, confirmed the prominence of Peter in the fulfillment of the great
commission. Their “hands” also validated and certified the ministry of Philip. Neither purpose leads us to Roman Catholic Confirmation. The remainder of the Bible teaches us that the only prerequisite for
receiving the Holy Spirit is faith! This historical incident is an exception to serve the purposes mentioned. It is by no means repeated in the Bible or in our experience in coming to the Lord.

Perhaps the most important Sacrament of Rome is her Mass. Roman
Catholics are taught that the Mass is a re-presentation of the once and for all sacrifice of Jesus Christ. As such, the Mass takes on all the elements of a propitiatory (satisfaction) sacrifice. It is said of the Mass that it is a real, although un-bloody, sacrifice for forgiveness of sins. In Roman Catholic parlance, the Mass is “the re-creation of the moment of Christ’s sacrifice.” This re-presentation of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ is augmented by Rome’s insistence that the wafer of bread is transformed into the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. Hence, Rome believes that a piece of bread becomes Jesus and is to be ingested for forgiveness of sins. All this takes place through the power invested into a Roman Catholic priest.

"The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes
present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit: (Christ), our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper 'on the night when he was betrayed,' (he wanted) to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit. (Paragraph 1366. New Catholic Catechism)

Nothing could be more foreign to the Christian than this. The Bible nowhere teaches such strange things. Christians reject this ritual as nothing more than voodoo and modern priest craft. The Bible over and over again asserts that Jesus died one time for all time. Faith in His historical death is all that is necessary for forgiveness of sins past and present and the future. There is absolutely no need for the Roman Catholic Mass.

By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Hebrews 10:10

For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are
sanctified. Hebrews 10:14

In closing, we would mention a word about the priesthood, penance and the Roman Catholic religion in general. The Lord Jesus Christ did not give a special power of forgiveness to a priestly class who would then dispense forgiveness of sin based upon penance. Rome appeals to John 20:21-23 as a proof text for her allegations. Let us examine this text.

Jesus therefore said to them again, "Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you." And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. "If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained." John 20:21-23

The key to this passage is the “manner” in which sins are to be
forgiven. We search in vain for a confessional box in the New Testament. We cannot find a single solitary example of an apostle “hearing the confession” of a parishioner. It is the consistent testimony of the New Testament that forgiveness of sins is based upon confession to God and repentance toward God. Initially, one becomes a Christian through faith and repentance. Conviction of sin followed by faith and repentance is the essence of the Christian experience. However, due to the nagging sin that ever remains a part of our fleshly existence, there is a need of cleansing. This cleansing of sin is experienced throughout the Christian life by confessing our sins to one another and seeking reconciliation with God by confessing our sins to Him. There is no need for an earthly mediator. Christians know that they can go directly to Jesus Christ for salvation, justification, redemption and reconciliation!

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

The power given to the apostles in John 20 has nothing to do with
confessional boxes, assigning of penances or special powers of priests. It must be seen in the broader picture of the proclamation of
forgiveness in the name of Jesus Christ. Just such a picture is given to us in the Gospel of Luke.

Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and rise again from the dead the third day; and that repentance for forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. Luke 24:45-47

This is what separates Rome from the Gospel of Christ. Rome insists upon a priestly led sacramental salvation. In so doing, Rome is outside of the Bible and remains lost in the labyrinth of her own traditions, religious rituals and humanly conceived auto soterism i.e., self
salvation. This is not the Christian Gospel.

10."I've been taught that Catholics believe we're saved by grace alone, but that it is through faith and works that we appropriate, or accept God's grace.  How is that unbiblical, considering that so many verses stress the need for personal holiness?"

I believe I answered this question in #9. But let me add this. The problem with the teaching of Rome is is that they are saying that one is saved by grace AND works. Whereas the Bible teaches us that we are saved BY grace, and that THROUGH faith, and this produce evidence
(works/fruit). For example...

James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James said show me your faith without works. This is impossible. James gave the example of Abraham, hearing the voice of God, and obeying. Abraham had faith, and that faith is evidenced by his obedience. Such is still true with the Child of God. We have faith, and that faith has corresponding action. Evelyn, the problem with this is putting the fruit before the root! Faith comes first, then works/fruit.

We are saved (born-again) by grace (the unmerited favor of God, 'Sola Gratia'), and that grace can ONLY be received through faith 'Sola Fide'.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:  
2:9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.  
2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.  


11."...doesn't seem logical that God would inspire the authors of the Bible through the Holy Spirit, but then not leave the Spirit to guide the Church."

I believe I answered this one in question #3

12."...isn't the Church "the pillar and foundation of truth"?

1 Tim. 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

The church is the house of God; he dwells there. The church holds forth the Scripture and the doctrine of Christ, as a pillar holds forth a proclamation. This was the Holy Spirit inspiring Paul to write to
Timothy, a young pastor, instructions on the care of the local church. The pastor always has to consider how he carries out his duties in the house of the living God, in which the treasure of the truth is kept. It is not the church itself that is the truth, but the means by which the truth preached.

The word church here is 'ejkklhsiva', meaning "an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting", and "the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth". This by definition is not a single group, but all truly born-again Believers.


Evelyn, I am sure that this reply has caused you to think, and perhaps it also brings up more questions. Let us prayerfully work through these issues together. I know that the Lord Jesus has brought us together for reason and purpose. Please let me know if this does help.

Elder Greg Madden
http://www.forministry.com/USOKPENTEMMM1