Expert: Marvin Howard - 5/16/2007

Question
QUESTION: Hi there.  I spotted your comment about the existence of a denomination prior to the Catholic Church and was interested in knowing who and what that is, history and so forth.

Thanks, and God bless.
ANSWER: Hi!

Danny, thank you for your question. I see that you have fallen for the worldly "wisdom" that all groups are denominations. That is not the case. I am a member of the only church that belongs to Christ. I am not in a denomination.

The church of which I am a member is mentioned specifically in the Bible, by both name and practice. Contrary to protestant belief, so is catholicism. However, the division that followed (succeeded) Cephas (Peter), that still exists today (RCC) was condemned in 1st Corinthians 1:12. The reason it was condemned was that it slapped Christ in the face for His prayer for unity in John chapter 17. The group known as catholics, and all, other denominations do the same thing.

You see, in that same prayer for unity (John 17:15), Christ prayed that His followers would be kept in from evil, by being united (one as Christ and the Father are one). Then, He turned around and specified how that could happen. They would remain one by staying set apart from the liars with truth.

So, what is truth? Can it be absolute and knowable? According to John 17:17, it can be, and it is God's Word; the Bible. When someone teaches something other than the Bible, it is a lie. All liars (even those who profess to follow God) will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8). This is exactly what happened when catholicism began its departure in 1st Corinthians 1:12.

For the next 450 or so years, they got further and further away from Jesus being their Lord. Eventually, in 533, they made it official. Emperor Justinian declares that his name is now John II, and that he is the "Lord of the church," instead of Jesus. This sent the true church, which had existed alongside the catholics, into hiding; the wilderness, or dark ages.

Either Christ's church continued, or Christ was a liar. The gates of Hell would not prevail against it (Matthew 16:18). For over 1200 years (Revelation 12:6), the church would be hidden because of persecution by the RCC, as they killed anyone who taught differently; calling them heretics. So, catholics know these independent congregations existed. We are mentioned in catholic history. There is manifold proof that these congregations were all over Europe.

Nevertheless, the lack of religious freedom imposed by the apostate church (RCC) abolished many of the congregations of the church.

For independent corroboration of these two facts, please see these websites:

http://www.evangelismupdate.com/ARTICLES/grimm_article.htm

http://www.traces-of-the-kingdom.org

In 1793, James O'Kelly began a movement in America known as the "Restoration Movement." This is not to be confused with the Reformation by Luther and his contemporaries. It did not set out to change the existing apostates. Rather, O'Kelly was the first of many, acting independently of each other within just a few years, to denounce the divisional, man-made creeds, confessions, and catechisms of denominationalism and return to the Christianity presented by God in His Word. This was exactly 1260 years after Justinian made the complete break from the church (533 to 1793). This movement was in accordance with the prophecy of Revelation 12:6.

Out of the efforts of men like O'Kelly, Barton W. Stone, Thomas Campbell, and Alexander Campbell, the church emerged once again from its forced hiding and exile.

The churches of Christ (Romans 16:16), that is those congregations which belong to Him, still exist in the same, doctrinally pure form as they did in the first century. We are not a new denomination founded in the late 18th and early 19th centuries as the denominations would have you believe. We came from the same seed (Matthew 13:23), and as such we produce the same plant, just Christians (Acts 11:26). We wear no other name. All other plants (those born of seed contrary to the Word of God) will be uprooted (Matthew 15:13).

For a chart showing what happened throughout history, please see this website:

http://www.geocities.com/preacherman_1962/ChurchHistory.html

For a video sermon that proves that denominationalism is a damnable sin, please watch the video at the following site:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9118840870056918783

Danny, I apologize that this format does not render any of these sites as links. You will need to copy and paste them into browser windows. I thank you for the opportunity to answer this for you. I realize that after hearing lies for so many years, especially from those who you trusted (both religious and familial), accepting the truth can be extremely difficult. I just pray that you will examine the evidence presented with an open mind.

In His Service,
Marvin Howard
http://www.geocities.com/preacherman_1962
http://360.yahoo.com/preacherman_1962

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: For the sake of simplicity, you would belong to the Church of Christ?  If so, I've seen many different churches bear that name.  As for myself, I am a former protestant who converted to the Roman Catholic Church.  I did want to add that before anyone bashes the Catholic Church with a scripture-alone approach, are they aware that the bible they revere so much came from the Roman Catholic Church?  I am in no way belittling the Holy Word of God, but simply bringing historical facts to light.

Thanks for your answer.  God bless.
ANSWER: Hi!

Danny, I am, indeed, a member of the churches of Christ. I am aware that there are bodies out there that wear the same name, but are not the church. That does not prevent the church from existing.

Forget placing the Scripture in a little candle light that can leave shadows of doubt as to actual events. Let's bring it fully into the open light of day. On the issue of Scripture, and who gave it, you are making two errors. First, the apostles gave us the Scripture; not a body condemned by one of them (1st Corinthians 1:12). Secondly, you are failing to take all of history into account. You are parroting the party line without thinking. If catholicism did not completely split from the church until 533 A.D., and the Scriptures were formally canonized in 325, then the church had a hand in the canonization, too.

We in the church have as much right to the Scriptures as any religion. In fact, we have more so. We still follow them. We didn't add all the paganism of Saturn worship (christmas), Ashtaroth/Astarte/Ishtar/Eastare/Easter worship, and Ra worship (his image is on your communion wafers). None of our church wears a crown on his forehead bearing the number 666; the pope does. The inscription is, "VICARIVS FILII DEI." Add the mathematical values of those characters that are Roman (RCC?) Numerals.

We did not depart from the faith in saying that one should worship Mary (Matthew 4:10).

We did not depart from the faith by saying that one sacrifice of Christ (Hebrews 10:10) is not enough (mass means sacrifice).

We did not depart from the faith by changing baptism (immersion) to rhontism (sprinkling) (Mark 16:16 and Hebrews 9:13).

We do not conduct our worship where the speaker is always facing the sun god in the east, and have services every day said god rises.

We did not depart from the faith by changing music that is "Of the Chapel" to a type that is NOT "Of the Chapel" (Ephesians 5:19).

We did not depart from the faith in saying that a person can only be a saint after he dies, and if he performed some exceptional work (Philippians 1:1).

We did not depart from the faith by forbidding priests to marry (1st Timothy 4:1-5).

We did not depart from the faith by saying that only a certain class of people in the church are priests (Revelation 20:6, in light of Romans 6:1-6).

We did not depart from the faith by commanding people not to eat meat on Fridays (1st Timothy 4:1-5).

We did not depart from the faith in saying that a person in torment after death CAN cross the fixed gulf (Luke 16:26).

We did not depart from the faith by disallowing everyone except a few access to the cup of Communion (Luke 22:17).

We did not depart from the faith in calling certain religious people "father," in direct violation of the Word of God (Matthew 23:9).

We did not declare the birthday of Saturn to be that of Jesus, while declaring the birthday of Jesus to be a Fool's Day (c.f., Luke 1:5, Exodus 34:22, and Luke 2:1-7).

I have barely scratched the surface of the abomination and apostasy of the RCC. She departed from the faith in all these ways, and many more. Catholicism relinquished her right to claim Scripture for her own when she thus mocked it. We are the only ones with BOTH the history and the right.

Christ, the Head of the church (Ephesians 5:23), does not have two (or more) bodies. Such would be a monstrosity. He has only one body (Ephesians 4:4), and that body is a singular church (Colossians 1:18). It is one that He built (Matthew 16:18), one that is built upon the foundation that Jesus is the Christ (not on Peter) the son of the living God, one that wears His Name (Romans 16:16), and one that does the things that He says (Luke 6:46) rather than the things a man claiming to be His replacement (or vicar) says.

Danny, I am sorry that seeing the truth in print hurts so. I just pray you will repent and become a Christian before you are hurt even worse at the judgment, for you see, being catholic and being Christian are mutually exclusive terms. It is oxymoronic to say you are a "catholic Christian," for there is no such thing. Neither is there a "protestant Christian," for the same reasons.

In His Service,
Marvin Howard
http://www.geocities.com/preacherman_1962
http://360.yahoo.com/preacherman_1962

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Thanks for your answer.  I do have to make some corrections.  The Catholic Church is the original church founded by Christ.  I'm not going to quote scripture because I don't have to.  This is merely a study of religious history, not doctrine.  The 27 books of the New Testament that you have in your bible were put there by the Catholic Church around the year 400.  Take religion out of it and just pick up an encyclopedia.  There were numerous writings in existence in addition to those 27 books.  I think there were some 50 different gospels, but we only have 4.  This is because the Church (Catholic) through study, prayer and discernment, only authorized the 4 we have today.  This decision was made on the authority Christ gave Her at the beginning.  Now, a person can question the authority of the Church all day long, but the fact remains that the 27 books of the NT in your bible and mine came from and were canonized by the Catholic Church.

The reason it is important to point out this history is because nearly all Protestants point to the bible as proof that they have the correct teachings of Christ, which is the same claim that you also make, but fail to look further into history to learn where their bible came from in the first place.  Everyone says that their faith is based on the Holy Word of God, the Word which is infallible and without error.  This statement about the bible would be correct, and at a glance, their argument would sound solid.  However, there's more to it.

The next element to consider, though, is what do the Holy Scriptures mean?  Understanding their meaning is called interpretation.  Any person with an understanding of the English language and a copy of the bible can read it, but do they understand what they're reading?

I bring this up because many Protestants operate under the principle of sola scriptura - scripture alone.  Sola scriptura, however, is flawed, because it leaves the discernment of the meaning of scripture to personal interpretation.  I can pick up the bible myself, read it, decide it means this or that, start a church, and teach my version/understanding as "divinely" inspired doctrine.  So can you and 100 others.  What happens, then, when we sit down and discuss the teachings of Christ?  More than likely we will not agree.  You will argue that your interpretation is the right one, and I will argue the same, as will everyone else.  Since neither of us have any more authority over the bible than anyone else, who am I to tell you that your interpretation is wrong, and vice versa?  This is why we have 54,000 different denominations, including the Church of Christ.

As you correctly stated, there is one Church, one Faith that was given to us by Christ.  That Church was given authority for teaching and interpreting the Faith, even in written form - the holy bible.  Without that authority, we are left to ourselves to determine what the bible means, and we already see where that has led.  That authority rests with the Roman Catholic Church.

Thanks again for your answer.  I look forward to hearing from you.  God bless.




ANSWER: Hi!

Danny, you make several unsubstantiated assertions here, even though there is no question. First, you say catholicism is the original. You say you do not need to point out Scripture. The fact of the matter is, you cannot. The churches of Christ were the original. I have pointed you to Romans 16:16. The church that claimed to follow Peter (Cephas), what later became the RCC, was also extant in Bible times, but it was condemned by Paul:it was not the original, but rather had departed from the original.

Secondly, the church of Christ is NOT a denomination, as you falsely assert. I have proof of my (well, Christ's, but you know what is meant by the expression) church both existing prior to any denomination, including yours, and its being Scriptural. You do not. All you have is your say so that you are the original, along with others who have been taught the same thing.

Thirdly, it was not in 400, but in 325 (at Nicea) when the Scriptures were compiled and declared authoritative; that is canonized. Nevertheless, it is a moot point. In either case, it still occurred during the time that catholicism identified themselves with (were merely hangers on with) the true churches of Christ (any time before 533). The churches of Christ canonized Scripture, and the apostates that would become catholicism were there. Both groups were involved. The Apostles gave it to us, and together we compiled it. Your group GAVE us nothing, save a huge headache and a bunch of lies!

2nd Peter 1:20, "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation."

You do err, yet again (4th time now?), by saying that we can all come to different conclusions. That is false. Those who study, and WANT to know the truth will use the Bible, from other passages, for their interpretation. The truth seekers will all arrive at the SAME conclusion. With the Holy Spirit, through the Scripture, telling you what a passage means, you cannot err in understanding unless you want to do so. It is a lie that the church was given charge to interpret it. This is yet another assertion you give, with nothing to back it up but the word of a line of men who are proven liars. It is a lie on the other extreme that we are left open to decide what it means for ourselves.

You make a fifth error in saying that many of the protestants practice sola scriptura. Not a single, solitary one does so. They are liars if they say they do. Rather, they, like you, have adopted man-made creeds which they elevate to a higher position of authority than the Bible. The church rejects all of those creeds. If it is different from the Bible (and it is), it is wrong. If it is the same, it is a superfluous waste of time.

You did not correct any errors (yet another error of yours), but rather you just added more.

Now, I will make a bold statement here, and prove it with the logic of theology. The catholics are not a church as they claim. Likewise, the baptists, the methodists, the episcopalians, the presbyterians, and any like them are not churches. They are merely daughters, with many of the same characteristics of their mother whore, of Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots; none other than RCC.

But, I digress. A Chapel is nothing more than a building where the church meets. "A Cappella" is a Latin phrase, and as an RCC you should be able to find someone to substantiate this rather easily, except probably none of them are honest enough to give you a translation. "A Cappella" translates to "of the chapel." "A Cappella" is vocal music, with no instrumental accompaniment. Logically then, all music that proceeds from chapels, or church buildings, is vocal. Likewise, the opposite must be true. If there is a mechanical instrument there and in use, the place is not a church. It has been called out of nothing, for it is still lost and condemned in the world. It has been called by no one, as the Holy Spirit is going to call no one to do something other than what the Holy Spirit revealed in Scripture. The very definition of "church" is "the called out." Neither catholics nor protestants fit this definition, and have no right to say they do.

Also, each of you calls your preachers God. Deny it all you want, but it will only be telling one lie after another, and that alone condemns you to Hell. The man you call pope is no one's father regardless of what the tranlation of his title claims. Yet, even he says, outright, that he is "Christ (God) on earth." Beside this, Psalm 111:9 says reverend is God's name. If you call a man Reverend, you call him God. Likewise, if a man wants to be called Reverend, he wants to be called God.

You see, Reverend comes from the Hebrew word for fear. We are commanded to fear no man; only to fear God. By calling someone Reverend, you are saying, "I revere you, I adore you, I worship you, I fear you, and you are my God."

Anyone who is either a catholic or protestant is not a Christian. Anyone who is either a catholic or protestant is not in a church, regardless of any unprovable assertions they, like you, may make. They are all lost and condemned, unless they leave those imposter bodies, and do what God said to be added to His one church, for they have yet to do it. They all either invented something else on their own (like indulgences and purgatory on your part), or they listened to someone (or only listening to 20% of God's plan of salvation on the part of the protestants) without searching the Scriptures daily to see if what was taught was true.

So, Danny, here is the deal. You heard the truth today; my guess is for the first time ever. You can either quit the sin of being catholic so that you may finally become a Christian for the first time, or I shake the dust of my feet at you for rejecting the truth, as commanded by my only Spiritual Father; God. I will hear no more of your baseless assertions or straw-men arguments. I will accept no more lies. Even if you are not their originator, you make them your own by promulgating them further.

Now, if you are willing to listen to the God of Heaven when He contradicts your god, Ratsinger, then I will entertain further questions.

You may think I am too rough. This is not so. I am commanded to contend for the faith in Jude 3. This is a boxing term. God tells me He expects me to use His sword, the Bible, and He expects me to fight to the end where my truth will defeat your falsehood. I must tell you these things, for if I don't, your damnation falls on my head as well for not warning you of the danger in which you reside. All I am doing is telling you the truth out of a love for all mankind, including you. I cannot let you be lost, which is what will happen if I sugar-coat the message. You will go away thinking that I believe you are safe.

In His Service,
Marvin Howard
http://www.geocities.com/preacherman_1962
http://360.yahoo.com/preacherman_1962

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Your statement was:  "The churches of Christ canonized Scripture, and the apostates that would become Catholicism were there. Both groups were involved."  

My question is:  So an apostate group assisted in the canonization of Holy Scripture?  So the churches of Christ accepted a New Testament canon that worshippers of Satan had a hand in putting together?  You own comments contradict themselves.  How can you accept a canon of scripture that was put together with the assistance of a "whore", as you put it, and still trust it to be infallible and without error?


Answer
Hi!

Danny, from the time of canonization, there yet remained over 200 years (from 325 until 533) before catholicism completed its break from the church and fulfilled that prophecy to which I made reference.

Catholicism had yet to fully apostatize. Moreover, the church is the one that made the decisions. Catholicism didn't make any errors in that regard. If she had, the church would have marked her and avoided her then (rather than as we did later) as commanded in Romans 16:16-18. If catholicism had erred, we would have different Bibles. Consider the case when after catholicism broke, they tried to add the Apocrypha. We refused.

The church can also trace her existence to that time, and catholicism knows we were there, too. Catholicism became the stronger and militant group that it was during the crusades. As such, they believed they won the war with the church, especially since we were forced into hiding, and our congregations were therefore few and far between.

The saying goes, "He who wins the war writes the history." Catholicism wrote a little revisionist history, thinking they had defeated us. They acknowledge our existence, but since we agreed with the Bible, and disagreed with catholicism, we were considered heretics. Moreover, catholicism misrepresented the doctrine of the church, trying to make us look like extremists.Nevertheless, the church, separate from catholicism, is in catholic history.

Every time catholicism invented a new and foreign doctrine, we rose up. However, each time, catholicism believed we were a different group, and has us marked as several groups which did not survive.

It is obvious that you have your mind set, and you will not be confused with true facts. You obviously did not look at all the materials I gave you before. I am done.

In His Service,
Marvin Howard
http://www.geocities.com/preacherman_1962
http://360.yahoo.com/preacherman_1962