Expert: Elder Greg Madden - 5/11/2007

Question
QUESTION: SOmething was preventing me from answering on our thread, so I started a new one.  Anyway...

Again, youre missing the point.  You have quoted yet have not understood.  SO again, I will ask, what is a sacrament? WHat you have quoted states it, yet you dont see it.  Youre getting stuck on a word which is not an object of difference between us, though you make it so. A sacrament is nothing more or less than a visible sign of Christ Himself and His Power, instituted by HIm.  SO yes, you are incorrect in your interpretaion.  I became a Catholic CHristian the same way you became a Christian, by Baptism.YOu were Baptised, werent you? That my friend is a sacrament. YOu were involved in a sacrament, same as hundreds of thousands of other non-Catholic Christians.

You second question is redundant somewhat of the first, except that the CAtholic Church (unlike many other Christian churches) does indeed recongnize baptisms from other churches, so it would not have to be done again. Instruction in the faith is also involved. Research the RCIA program for more info.  

Catholics experience salvation the SAME EXACT WAY AS YOU DO! The passion, death, and resurrection of Jesus CHrist. Undoubtably, you will nowstick on your narrow perception of the word sacrament here, but again, it would be incorrect. You and I have so much more in common because of Our Lord than we have as differences.  I am begining to think we should look more at that point of view.

As for your fourth question, I turn it back on you, what would YOU say? What couldany of us say, othere than throw ourselves on God's mercy, bought with the blood of Christ HImself!  On our own, we merit nothing.
ANSWER: John,

First let me say that I pray that you enjoy this Good Friday, and that you and your wife have a blessed Resurrection Sunday.

Before I get into responding in detail to your last response, just want to be VERY CLEAR on what you are saying. I don't want you to think that my "narrow perception" would be the reason we cannot seem to even settle on how the definition of what the catholic church teaches as a means of salvation. LOL! :-)

You are saying that you became a Christian by baptism.
Yes or no? (as a side note here, was this as an infant or adult?)

You are saying that the "sacrament's" are how you receive forgiveness.
Yes or no?

You are saying that catholics experience salvation only by what Jesus did in His "passion, death, and resurrection".
Yes or no?

You are saying that when you stand before God, and He ask's you "John, why should I let you into my heaven?" that you would not answer anything, but "throw ourselves on God's mercy".
Now on this answer I am really unclear. Would you describe to me exactly how you would do this?

John, once again my friend I am only asking these questions so that we can both be crystal clear with each other. I will give you my response as to how I would answer God why I should be let into heaven in my next reply.

God Bless,
Elder Greg





---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: I thought the response was pretty clear, but to answer your questions...

Yes, as an infant

Will not answer any more sacrament questions until you acknowledge the proper definition of what a sacrament is

Yes and no...yes, but you need to have the faith in the Paschal event in order to share in it.
ANSWER: John,

Thank you for answering my questions. They did help. So that there is no
misunderstanding, let me see if I am understanding your answers.

1. You are saying that you became a Christian, and therefore obtained eternal life,
when you were baptized as an infant.

2. You believe that I have not given you an adequate answer as to the "proper
definition" of sacraments. (If this is the case, would you please enlighten me as to
your definition).

3. You are saying that simply acknowledging what Jesus did (His passion, death, and
resurrection) are how catholics receive salvation. That just the knowledge of these
events are sufficient for salvation. (I believe you said 'yes and no" to this one, so
your clarification would be helpful).

4. You are saying that faith in the paschal event is how you would throw yourself on
the mercy of God. (If this is the case, perhaps you could describe exactly how you
would describe obtaining this faith, and exactly what the paschal event is).

Thanks,
Elder Greg



---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: The definition has been provided in the Cathechism quotes, which you ALSO provided, so this is just dancing round now.

No, belief in the events in necessary, as St. Paul states.

I think it time we move ahead in the discussion.
ANSWER: John,

Sorry for the Late reply. I am finding myself more and more busy! Is it just me, or is it the same with you John? Oh well, to our discussion.

It is in your previous reply, and the clarification of that reply, I find what originally started our discussion. You asked me to explain how I felt the catholic church had "watered down" the truth. that is why I was so insistent upon you clarifying your answers. I did not want you to accuse me again of setting up a "strawman". So once again thank you for your patience with me.

It is the issue of salvation taught by the catholic church (and verified by your answers) that has watered down Biblical Truth. Salvation as given by the Saviour through His Holy Word is the very foundation of every Christian. If you get salvation wrong, then everything else is faulty. If you get salvation wrong, then in fact you are not a Christian. Agreed? I mean, there are those who claim to be Christians that deny the virgin birth of our Lord. They cannot be Christians because the "christ" they believe in is not the Christ of the Bible. See my point?

John, you said that "...that you became a Christian, and therefore obtained eternal life, when you were baptized as an infant."

This is totally un-scriptural, and proves my point. Please show me one (or more) Scriptural text that verifies this practice.

I await your reply.
Blessings,
Elder Greg

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Sorry, no.  What I said was that salvation was by baptism, mine just happened to be when I was an infant. Being born again of water and the Spirit is in the Gospel of John, as well as Pauline letters. You do not know this???  Do you deny the Scripture's numerous references to baptism? Jesus Himself was baptised.  In Acts, the enuch is baptised to be saved, and so is Cornelius.  How does one so familiar with Scripture miss this?

Also, remember, salvation was not originally given to the early church by the Holy Word, as there were no written gospels at the time, this is an historic point you continue to ignore.  

AS ar as busyness. yes, I am in my Master's degree semester now, and am taking two classes, so time is at a premium!
ANSWER: John,

Hope your Saturday is going well. I just got back from Wal-Mart. Yuk! Just a reminder, my answer to you today is rather lengthy. Please erase this, or start a new question before you reply back. Thanks! :-)

So I was mistaken in believing that you received salvation at baptism? Then when did you receive salvation? If it was at baptism, and you were an infant, then how did you receive salvation?

It is true that the in the early days of the church, there was no "written" Bible. But it was not take very long until they did. In 2 Tim. the Bible says that "...all scripture is profitable...". So there was already Scriptures at that time. But this still does not address the issue of what text you use to support the doctrine of baptismal regeneration. Every doctrine must be supported by the Holy Bible. Agreed? If it contradicts the Bible, then we should wisely reject it as false.

The Bible does not teach that it is necessary to be baptized to receive salvation, but that baptism is a command for those who have. I will address the text you referenced in the Gospel of John.

“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God” (John 3:5).

This passage is talking about how a person is born again or how a person is regenerated. Those who believe in baptismal regeneration believe that the “water” mentioned in this verse refers to water baptism. But is this really the case?

First, we should remember that when Jesus said these words, Christian baptism had not yet been instituted. Christian baptism was first mentioned by Christ in Matthew 28:19-20 and it was not practiced until Acts chapter 2 (the day of Pentecost, see especially verse 41). That there was a clear difference between the baptism of John and Christian baptism is obvious from Acts 19:1-7 (compare also Acts 18:25). So Jesus in John 3:5 could not have been referring to Christian baptism because such did not exist at that time.

If He was not referring to baptism, then what was our Lord referring to when He taught that a person must be “born of water”? The main point that Jesus was making is this: You cannot enter God’s kingdom unless you are CLEAN. Filthy disciples (those who are unclean, unforgiven, uncleansed) will not be allowed to enter. Our Lord was not talking about physical water which can only cleanse a person on the outside. In John 3:5 Jesus was talking about SPIRITUAL CLEANSING (something that must happen on the inside of a person). To be clean on the outside a person must take a bath and use soap and water! To be clean on the inside there is another kind of bath that is needed. Soap and water can never remove the filth of sin! God must do something on the inside of a person. Let us now see what the Bible says about being born of water and of the Spirit.  

John 3:3 says that if a person is going to see the kingdom he must be born again. John 3:5 says that if a person is going to enter the kingdom he must be born of water and of the Spirit. Therefore, being born again means the same thing as being born of water and of the Spirit. If a person has been born again, then this person has been born of water and of the Spirit.

Water is the one thing we use whenever we wash something. Water is the universal cleansing agent. If you wash your car, water is used. If you wash your face, water is used. To make your clothes bright and clean, you use water. To make your teeth clean, you not only use toothpaste, but water as well. Whatever we wash, water is somehow involved. It is easy to see how WATER can be symbolic of CLEANSING (making something clean)!

Sinners need to be washed and made clean. Jesus wanted Nicodemus to know something very important: No unclean person can enter God's kingdom! Paul says it this way: “For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God” (Ephesians 5:5 and see also Galatians 5:21 and Revelation 21:27). To enter the kingdom a person must be CLEAN and WASHED on the inside (sins forgiven!). No unwashed people will be admitted! No unclean person will enter the kingdom of God. Only cleansed sinners will be allowed! Compare Psalm 24:3-4. You must be born of water! You must be washed!

Consider 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. Will any unclean or unrighteous people inherit the kingdom? Will washed sinners enter the kingdom (1 Corinthians 6:11)? There is hope for the filthy, but only if they get washed, and this washing does not refer to water baptism. It refers to an inner work that only God can do. In verse 11 we have the two ingredients of John 3:5 mentioned: the WATER (“washed”) and the SPIRIT (“by the Spirit of our God”).

Whenever you think of John 3:5 you should also think of Titus 3:5. The latter explains the former. Both of these verses are found in chapter 3 verse 5, so they are easy to remember! Both of these verses talk about being BORN AGAIN (the word "REGENERATION" in Titus 3:5 means "born again"). Both of these verses talk about the WATER and the SPIRIT. Look at Titus 3:5: "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration (the WATER) and renewing of the Holy Spirit (the SPIRIT)." The born again person is the person who has been thoroughly cleansed and renewed by the Spirit of God!

All of these verses are talking about that wonderful work which God does on the inside of a person, making it possible for him to enter God's kingdom!

John, notice the water in John 13:5. Jesus was using this water to be a symbolic picture of an important spiritual truth. Was Peter a "washed" disciple? Was Peter CLEAN on the inside (see John 13:9-10)? Who was the disciple who was never born of water? Judas was the disciple who was unwashed and unclean and who had never been born again (John 13:10-11 and compare John 13:2)? This man would never enter the kingdom.

The WATER is also mentioned in Ephesians 5:25-26: "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word” (Eph. 5:25-26). How is a person washed? BY THE WORD! The WORD OF GOD is an essential part of the cleansing process. The WORD OF GOD is the mirror that shows us how dirty we really are (because of sin). Not only does the Bible show us our sin, but it also points out the only Saviour and His many promises to save those who truly believe on Him. Without the Word of God a person could never be saved and could never be born again. The following verses show how important God's Word is when it comes to salvation and regeneration and cleansing:

1) Psalm 119:9 -"Wherewithal (how) shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.”

2) John 15:3 - "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.”

3) 1 Peter 1:23-25 - "Being born again (regeneration!) not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God which liveth and abideth for ever."

4) James 1:18 - "Of His own will begat He us with the word of truth." “Begat” is another term that relates to regeneration.

God's Word does two things: 1) It shows man how great a sinner he is (Romans 3:10-23) and 2) It show man how great a Saviour Christ is (Romans 3:24-26)!

Nicodemus was a Jew who should have been familiar with the Old Testament. In John 3:9 we see that Nicodemus still did not understand what Jesus was talking about. In John 3:10 Jesus told Nicodemus that he should have known these things! He should have understood about the WATER and the SPIRIT! He should have been familiar with EZEKIEL 36:25-29. Does this passage talk about the WATER? Does this passage talk about being CLEAN and being CLEANSED? Does this passage talk about the SPIRIT? In this passage God promised to do a wonderful work ON THE INSIDE (see Ezekiel 36:26-27)! See also Jeremiah 4:14 and Isaiah 1:16.

John my friend, based on these many passages, if God has not cleansed you on the inside, then you will not enter the kingdom. You must be born again! Water baptism is not the answer. You need to be cleansed before you ever get baptized in water. You need to have your heart purified by faith (Acts 15:9).

I look forward to your reply.
Elder Greg

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: I will agree with you that faith is necessary.  Any ritual alone will never suffice without an inner conversion, an assent of faith.  However, history trips you up again. You go on about how Christ couldnot have been referring to Christian baptism because it didnt exist yet. Unfortuantely, you again forget the time of the written Gospels, which are written 70-100 years AFTER the Resurrection event.  The authors, therefore, knew very well of Christian Baptism, as it has already been a practice.  Keeping that in mind, your conclusion is faulty. Are you then saying that faith alone is sufficient, baptism is unecessary. Then why in Acts did the eunich and Cornelius get baptised? It seems you are picking and choosing your references.
ANSWER: John,

History is tripping me? Huh? What you are suggesting is that there is some sort of
"historical knowledge" that contradicts and supersedes the Holy Bible itself. If
this is the case John, then with all due respect, you have truly fallen victim to a
false doctrine and are bordering on blasphemy itself. Please tell me what this
mysterious "history" is that you keep alluding to, and then we can both hold it up
to the Infallible Light of God's Word. Agreed?

You asked me if faith alone is sufficient. For the receiving of eternal life
(salvation) the Bible clearly teaches us that we are saved by grace through faith,
and not by works.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift
of God:  
2:9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.  
2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath
before ordained that we should walk in them.

Yes good works are apart of the life of a Christian. But we do not receive eternal
life by doing these good works. On the contrary, Eph. 2:10 teaches us we are saved
to do good works, not saved by them. Our good works give evidence of the personal
relationship, new birth, born-again experience we have received in Jesus Christ.

The Holy Bible teaches us that water baptism (full immersion into water) is
commanded to be received by all who have repented from their sins (received Christ
as Lord and Savior). Baptism is subsequent to conversion and not a saving ordinance,
but an outward sign of an inward work. Baptism is not optional for the believer, but
a command of our Lord to be obeyed.

Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of
Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy
Ghost.

The person being baptized is required to have repented (converted to Christ) first
before receiving baptism. If there is not repentance before water baptism, then the
person only get's wet. The receiving of Christ as Lord and Savior is required first.
As is the case with the eunuch you referenced...

Acts 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and
preached unto him Jesus. 36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain
water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he
answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he
commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both
Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

The Bible clearly gives us the answer to baptismal recruitments "...If thou
believest with all thine heart, thou mayest..."

Which, by the way, would totally exclude all infants seeing it is imposable for them
to have the mental capacity to have a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.  

And with the case of Cornelius you referenced, please read the 10th chapter of Acts
again John. When you do you will find that as Peter preached to all those who were
gathered at Cornelius' home, that the Holy Spirit filled every one of them. How do
we know this? The Bible clearly states that...

Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which
heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as
many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift
of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God...

These people heard the Word being preached by Peter. Without the preaching of the
Word, no one can receive eternal life (Rom. 10:17). Then as a result of them
receiving the Word being preached, God gave evidence of their conversion to Christ
by filling them with the baptism of the Holy Spirit. How do we know this? Peter gave
testimony that he and the others from Jerusalem heard them speak with in tongues
“…which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we.” So as a result of this
conversion and filling of the Holy Spirit (which the world, or the unbelieving
cannot receive John 14:7), Peter commanded that these Spirit Filled Believers should
receive water baptism.

Acts 10:46...Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not
be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded
them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain
days.

John, you falsely accuse me of picking and choosing. Yet when you FINALLY reference
a scriptural occurrence (still no chapter and verse, but I'll take what you give)
you misinterpret them, trying to fit them into your doctrine when they do not fit.
The Bible shows evidence that the Eunuch and Cornelius had received Christ as Lord
before their water baptism. Or does this history you insist upon clinging to deny
this too? Pray and consider these things my friend.

Elder Greg



John,
Are you still there, or have we reached the point of no longer dicussing these issues? If you would like, I am willing to continue. The ball is in your court.

Elder Greg


---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: I sent you last a bunch of Scripture references and a website to peruse. Why didnt you respond to that post instead of this ealier one?
ANSWER: Sorry, but for some reason I did not get it. If you could resend them I would be happy to resopond.

Elder G~

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: I didnt make that lastone private, so it should be there somewhere. Anyway, Im too busy to continue at this point. I wish you well, and hope to take this up again with you soon. God bless.

Answer
John,

I have searched, but have been unable to find the last responce you sent. Sorry. It saddens me to read that you will no longer be able to continue or discusion. As soon as you are able, please get back with me and we will pick up where we left off.

God Bless.

Elder Greg

http://www.forministry.com/USOKPENTEMMM1