Expert: Marvin Howard - 1/30/2007

Question
I'm not sure how you get the OT canon from these verses. Are you saying that the prophets from Abel to Zacharias wrote the OT? Do all the OT writings indicate who the authors are?
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I read you entire response, all the way to the bottom. I don't see an answer to the question - When & where did Jesus give us the OT canon? By that I mean was it in the NT or some other document(s)? If a non NT document -how was this verified?"

You state "Jesus gave the canon in the New Testament" but where / how / what document did He give us the canon? On what basis do you make that statement? Where in the NT or some other authentic, verifiable, historic source is the basis for your statement?

Where did he say in the NT or elsewhere that Genisis, et al is canonical or the true word of God?
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I don't see an answer in your response to the question - "When & where did Jesus give us the OT canon? By that I mean was it in the NT or some other document(s)? If a non NT document -how was this verified?"

You stated "Jesus gave the canon in the New Testament." But again, where did He say that Genesis, et al were canonical? What book of the NT or other document. And if something other that the NT - who verified that that is accurate, truly declared by Christ?


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When & where did Jesus give us the OT canon? By that I mean was it in the NT or some other document(s)? If a non NT document -how was this verified?

Where was the meeting held in  / about 325? Who was present? How did they have the authority to decide the NT canon?
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Who determined which books of the Bible were truly inspired?

I have read that many books were written that ultimately were not considered "scriptural". There have lately been discussions in the media about the gospel of Thomas, Judas etc... What was the criteria for selecting some but not others? who made the selections?around the
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Which came first - the Bible or the church?
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Hi!

Thank you for the opportunity to answer this for you. I am not trying to make a joke here; the short answer is, "Both." Please allow me to explain.

The church was established on the day of Pentecost in the year 29; 50 days after the death of Jesus. Before this time, every mention of the church in Scripture is written using future tense. Every instance after this is written in past tense.

However, the church existed in God's mind (foreordained), though not in physicality, from the creation.

In addition, the Old Testament is part of the Bible. It was completed some 430 years before Christ was born. Jesus quoted from it.

Finally, the church had her birth about 20 years before the first of the New Testament was written. Much of it was written historically; that is looking back to the beginning of Christ's life and the birth of the church.

In conclusion, part of the church (the creation thought) existed before any Scripture was written. Some Scripture was written before the physical birth of the church. Some Scripture was written after the birth of the church. As a whole unit (OT and NT), the Scripture was not fully in existence before the church in its physicality.

I pray this has made sense to you. If you have further questions, please do not hesitate to ask.

In His Service,
Marvin Howard
http://www.geocities.com/preacherman_1962
http://360.yahoo.com/preacherman_1962
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Hi!

I assume you are speaking of the New Testament only, but just in case, let me briefly assure you that Jesus gave the O.T. canon; and it did not include the apocryphal writings.

You are correct that many books and letters were written. There was no "committee" within the church that chose the books of the N.T. Nevertheless, even with no hierarchy within the church (that came later among the apostates), all the congregations had contact with several others; either by letter or visitation. Each congregation was able to see when a writing contradicted part of the entire body of teaching of the Savior (and by extension the Apostles). Even today, you can take any writing, compare it with the others, and see if it is contradictory. If it is, it is not inspired; and not canonical.

Of course, there were other criteria, as well. Were the writers Apostles or their close associates (as in the case of the personal scribes of Paul)? Was the language indicative of the alleged writer's regional background? For example, someone who lived in Judea would not write using Alexandrian idiom.

The canon was written entirely in the first century. It was accepted before, but it was made "official" in about 325 A.D. This is just over 200 years after it was written. Also, it was before catholicism went completely apostate from Christianity as the first, living denomination. As such, all of her denominational daughters have the same canon with both catholicism and the church. The most important criteria of all, and one that is lost to us in antiquity, is familial witness. There were people in the church who had grandparents who were among the first converts. Many heard family stories of recent ancestors who met these people. The teaching of the church was still fresh. Though it was trying, much of the false doctrine taught today had not yet encroached upon the church. What was there (denominationalism, Judaism, and gnosticism to name a few) was easily refutable.

I have read a small portion of these spurious works. I can assure you that those who are very familiar with religious doctrine can spot errors rather quickly. I am confident that this was even more of a truth earlier in history.

Thank you for the chance to answer this. I pray I was able to make this clear for you.

In His Service,
Marvin Howard
http://www.geocities.com/preacherman_1962
http://360.yahoo.com/preacherman_1962
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Hi!

I apologize for the delay in response. I came down with the flu, and have not felt like doing anything.

Jesus gave the canon in the New Testament.

The Old Testament writings, from Genesis to Malachi, are Scriptures. How can we know that the Apocrypha is excluded as authoritative?

Luke 11:47-51, “Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchers of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchers. Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; FROM THE BLOOD OF ABEL UNTO THE BLOOD OF ZACHARIAS, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.” (Emphasis mine, MRH)

The Hebrew Bible is written chronologically, rather than the books being sorted by type. Abel was the first prophet (by his deeds), and is recorded in Genesis. Though there are other Minor Prophets written after Zechariah (i.e., Nehemiah and Ezra), all of them are contemporaries of this Prophet, being written during the same general time frame, while all three yet lived. If they were false, Zechariah would have refuted them. Therefore, Jesus gave His accepted cannon of the Old Testament in this passage. Since the Apocrypha was written well after this time, the standard (and extended version) set of books is definitely excluded, even though they may be claimed by those less knowledgeable. Even though the order of arrangement is different, and some books are combined, every word of our Old Testament is translated from this Hebrew Bible. We can be assured that we have all the words of the cannon given by the Lord in our 39 books.

The canon of the New Testament was established and accepted long before 325. It was accepted by all the congregations shortly after it was written; somewhere in the late 1st century or early 2nd century. That it was made "official" in 325 had no real bearing on its accuracy. It merely serves as a historical support of something that was already known.

The 325 date was the council of Nicea (Nice, Italy). They had no authority from God to make decisions for the whole church. In this case, the catholics just happened to agree with the church. Even though their split from us was completed in 533, they began splitting from us in 1st Corinthians 1:12 (the church of Cephas/Peter).

I hope this clarifies the issue for you.

In His Service,
Marvin Howard
http://www.geocities.com/preacherman_1962
http://360.yahoo.com/preacherman_1962
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Hi!

The latest answers are always at the bottom of the message. It confused me for the longest time, too. In case you read all the way down the message this time, here it is again.

I apologize for the delay in response. I came down with the flu, and have not felt like doing anything.

Jesus gave the canon in the New Testament.

The Old Testament writings, from Genesis to Malachi, are Scriptures. How can we know that the Apocrypha is excluded as authoritative?

Luke 11:47-51, “Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchers of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchers. Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; FROM THE BLOOD OF ABEL UNTO THE BLOOD OF ZACHARIAS, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.” (Emphasis mine, MRH)

The Hebrew Bible is written chronologically, rather than the books being sorted by type. Abel was the first prophet (by his deeds), and is recorded in Genesis. Though there are other Minor Prophets written after Zechariah (i.e., Nehemiah and Ezra), all of them are contemporaries of this Prophet, being written during the same general time frame, while all three yet lived. If they were false, Zechariah would have refuted them. Therefore, Jesus gave His accepted cannon of the Old Testament in this passage. Since the Apocrypha was written well after this time, the standard (and extended version) set of books is definitely excluded, even though they may be claimed by those less knowledgeable. Even though the order of arrangement is different, and some books are combined, every word of our Old Testament is translated from this Hebrew Bible. We can be assured that we have all the words of the cannon given by the Lord in our 39 books.

The canon of the New Testament was established and accepted long before 325. It was accepted by all the congregations shortly after it was written; somewhere in the late 1st century or early 2nd century. That it was made "official" in 325 had no real bearing on its accuracy. It merely serves as a historical support of something that was already known.

The 325 date was the council of Nicea (Nice, Italy). They had no authority from God to make decisions for the whole church. In this case, the catholics just happened to agree with the church. Even though their split from us was completed in 533, they began splitting from us in 1st Corinthians 1:12 (the church of Cephas/Peter).

I hope this clarifies the issue for you.

In His Service,
Marvin Howard
http://www.geocities.com/preacherman_1962
http://360.yahoo.com/preacherman_1962
-----Answer-----
Hi!

I am sorry, it must have been me being dense. Here is the passage where Jesus gave the canon. You must remember, the coinage of the thought of canonicity originated in or around 325.

Luke 11:47-51, “Woe unto you! for ye build the sepulchers of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchers. Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; FROM THE BLOOD OF ABEL UNTO THE BLOOD OF ZACHARIAS, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.” (Emphasis mine, MRH)

The Hebrew Bible is written chronologically, rather than the books being sorted by type. Abel was the first prophet (by his deeds), and is recorded in Genesis. Though there are other Minor Prophets written after Zechariah (i.e., Nehemiah and Ezra), all of them are contemporaries of this Prophet, being written during the same general time frame, while all three yet lived. If they were false, Zechariah would have refuted them. Therefore, Jesus gave His accepted cannon of the Old Testament in this passage. Since the Apocrypha was written well after this time, the standard (and extended version) set of books is definitely excluded, even though they may be claimed by those less knowledgeable. Even though the order of arrangement is different, and some books are combined, every word of our Old Testament is translated from this Hebrew Bible. We can be assured that we have all the words of the cannon given by the Lord in our 39 books.

Notice the capitals I placed in the passage. What we have in this passage is Jesus declaring that all of the prophets were between the times of Abel and Zacharias. These are authentic; the idea behind canonicity. There were no prophets (teachers of God/writers) between them and Christ; the Jews killed them all, and all was this list.

In His Service,
Marvin Howard
http://www.geocities.com/preacherman_1962
http://360.yahoo.com/preacherman_1962

Answer
Hi!

In the case of Abel, his actions were recorded by another; Moses. He is the first prophet in the Bible. This usage accredited the book of Genesis to the prophet Moses, rather than his work beginning with Exodus. Thus all of the prophets are included in the writing prophets, so the writing prophets are Moses to Zechariah (Zacharias). Later (non-contemporary) writings are therefore not prophetically inspired, and are not canonical.

Some of the books indicate their author. In many instances, the human authors referred to themselves in the third person to indicate that God was the true author. For others, we must rely on traditional history to provide the source. Here are the books, the authors I found, and the source giving the author. If such source is extra-Biblical, a footnote will be used, instead, to explain why/where combinations of sources are used to authenticate the author. Sometimes, a characteristic or quote of the writing prophet will be used in place of his name, and that characteristic or quote will be verified in another work already proven to be by that author. Remember, some prophets wore other hats as it were (i.e., they may have been priests or kings), but they were prophets nonetheless.

Genesis - Moses - (1)
Exodus - Moses - (1)
Leviticus - Moses - (1)
Numbers - Moses - (1)
Deuteronomy - Moses/Joshua - (1)
Joshua - Joshua - Joshua 1:1
Judges - Samuel - (2)
Ruth - Samuel - (3)
1st Samuel - Samuel - (4)
2nd Samuel - Samuel - (4)
1st Kings - Jeremiah - (5)
2nd Kings - Jeremiah - (5)
1st Chronicles - Ezra - 2nd Chronicles 36:22-23/Ezra 1:1-3
2nd Chronicles - Ezra - 2nd Chronicles 36:22-23/Ezra 1:1-3
Ezra - Ezra - Ezra 7:10
Nehemiah - Nehemiah - Nehemiah 1:1
Esther - Nehemiah - (6)
Job - Solomon - (7)
Psalms - David/Solomon - Psalm 3:1/1st Kings 4:32
Proverbs - David/Solomon - 1st Kings 4:32
Ecclesiastes - Solomon - Ecclesiastes 1:1/1st Kings 4:32
Song of Solomon - Solomon -Song of Solomon 1:1
Isaiah - Isaiah - Isaiah 1:1
Jeremiah - Jeremiah - Jeremiah 1:1
Lamentations - Jeremiah - Jeremiah 9:10/Lamentations 1:16
Ezekiel - Ezekiel - Ezekiel 1:1-3
Daniel - Daniel - Daniel 9:2
Hosea - Hosea - Hosea 1:1
Joel - Joel - Joel 1:1
Amos - Amos - Amos 1:1
Obadiah - Obadiah - Obadiah 1:1
Jonah - Jonah - Jonah 1:1
Micah - Micah - Micah 1:1
Nahum - Nahum - Nahum 1:1
Habakkuk - Habakkuk - Habakkuk 1:1
Zephaniah - Zephaniah - Zephaniah 1:1
Haggai - Haggai - Haggai 1:1
Zechariah - Zechariah - Zechariah 1:1
Malachi - Malachi - Malachi 1:1

(1) http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/moses.htm
(2) http://www.gotquestions.org/Book-of-Judges.html
(3) http://www.gotquestions.org/Book-of-Ruth.html
(4) http://www.gotquestions.org/Book-of-1-Samuel.html
(5) http://www.gotquestions.org/Book-of-2-Kings.html
(6) http://www.gotquestions.org/Book-of-Esther.html *
(7) http://www.zionfriedheim.org/biblestudies/Old%20Testament/job.htm **

* Mordecai was not a canonical prophet, as Jesus said all the prophets were murdered. The OT was written entirely by prophets. Therefore, the Nehemiah tradition would be correct.

** The "Wisdom Literature" was written by the Wise Man; Solomon. (1st Kings 4:29-32)

I pray this gives you a better insight into your study, and the authenticity of Scripture.

In His Service,
Marvin Howard
http://www.geocities.com/preacherman_1962
http://360.yahoo.com/preacherman_1962