Expert: Elder Greg Madden - 11/9/2006

Question
Boy, this site does not lend itself very well at all for an extended conversation.  It is a pain to scroll back and forth between this text I am typing and down to the bottom of this tiny window to see - and address - the last post.

As for my answer to Christ upon asking me why he "should" let me into heaven, I don't really understand.  I didn't have a snappy answer to your question, so I recalled the story and language of the parable of the talents, Matthew 25:14-23.

You've got me.  I should have answered with my first thought, and that is that the best answer might be "You know me, Lord".

I cannot guess what you might presume about what the Catholic Church teaches by how well I could say why Christ "should" let me into heaven...when, as I said before, saying "You SHOULD let me into heaven because..." is the same thing as saying "I DESERVE being let into heaven because..." - and I cannot say (and maybe this is a lack of knowledge on my own part) that I "deserve" to be let in heaven.

As for the link, I copy/pasted it no problem...so there could be a problem on your end.  The searchable Catechism is located at
www.kofc.org
From there type catechism in the search box and it will return a page with a link on it.

The catechism on that site is not good for reading "sections" of the catechism, so fyi here is a link to the entire catechism contents, where it can be read more like a book:
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

Now, I don't want to promote use of another "forum" over this site, but since this site makes "conversations" so difficult, may we continue our discussion in an "arena" that makes conversations easier...like a normal "Forum"?

If so, I do have one set up here:
http://www.catholictruths.com/forum

I do enjoy the discussion and hope that we might continue.

As you wish, though, Greg.

Rick.


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-----Question-----
To answer your last question, I first say that he would not use the word "should".  "Should" implies that I "deserve", or have earned, to be in Heaven.

I would say "My Faith has been in you and I have strived to be Your good and faithful servant"

Now back to your reiteration of the claim: "works salvation", this is very clearly taught in the catholic church.

You are mistaken.  I cannot prove a negative, but you may attempt to substantiate your claim: Here is a link to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (searchable version):
http://www.kofc.org/publications/cis/catechism/index.cfm

Also, the Catholic Church does not teach that if you leave the Catholic Church you go to Hell.

Sadly, our Church is like others: There are some leaders who teach incorrectly.

Issues such as these, where people say "Catholics believe this" and "Catholics believe that" - where they are dead wrong - is the main reason I started my site...as you'll see explained on the homepage.

Now that being said, it may very well be that you do NOT agree with what the Catholic Church teaches about Hell or Works or other things, but the best thing to do would be to educate yourself as to what is REALLY taught "officially" by the Catholic Church, which is found in the Catechism.

Rick.
www.catholictruths.com

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-----Question-----
Thank you for the suggestion.  Yes, I will also subscribe to the Catholic board...

As for this board, though, I think that a Catholic person SHOULD be here to clarify what Catholic beliefs really are...especially since you used the phrase "justification through works", which is NOT a Catholic teaching at all.  This is "urban legend".

...so I can't help but wonder if your (and other critics of Catholocism) understanding of the other things you mentioned is correct.

If we must agree to disagree on an issue or issues, it should at least be with a clear understand of what each of us really believes and is taught.

I enjoy discussing and even debating issues such as these - and have started a website for just that: www.catholictruths.com.  Since this site is not really set up for that sort of thing, I'd enjoy discussing, explaining, clarifying and/or debating specific issues with you there.

Agree on one thing we must:  That Christ's Church is One, and that you and I are members of it.

Peace and Blessings, Brother.

Rick.


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-----Question-----
Hi Greg, Rick Jackson (fellow answerer in Critics of Catholocism) here.

I'm curious.  When I look at Category Ratings, I see you, I and Marvin Howard listed...but when I click on the Critics of Catholocism board, all I see listed is you and I.

Why doesn't Marvin's name show up when visitors check that board?

I'm really surprised that there's only two of us answering on this board :(
-----Answer-----
Rick,

I'm am not sure why Marvin's name does not show up. Perhaps he has dropped out of this category? I too am surprised that there are only two of us in this category. This is probably a question for the tech dept of "All Experts".

To be frank with you Rick, after looking at your profile I was wondering why you volunteered for this category? With all due respect, you seem to be a catholic defender, not a critic. It is obvious after reading the positive responses you've received that you are.
As for myself, I have only had 13 questions so far, and because of my stated views of the catholic church all of them have been antagonistic to say the least. I know that my views are not "PC", but they are truth. I do not wish to personably attack yourself, or anyone who is catholic. But because of the catholic beliefs regarding praying to the dead, the veneration/worship of the virgin Mary (marianism), purgatory, and justification through works (all of which are totally un-Scriptural), I feel that I must speak up for the Truth and make myself available to answer the questions of those catholics who may have questions concerning their beliefs.

Rick, I am by no means being disrespectful, but perhaps you should switch to the "catholic" category? Just a suggestion. I would be happy to any further questions you have.
Thanks!
Elder Greg
-----Answer-----
Rick,

Thank you for your polite reply. Most of the catholics I disagree with are very antagonistic to say the least. You however seam very civil, thank you.

As to my statement that the roman catholic church teaches a "works salvation", this is very clearly taught in the catholic church (historically as well as in this modern age). People are told that if they leave the roman catholic church they will surly go to hell. People are kept in bondage with fear of missing heaven if they leave the roman catholic church.
The catholic "gospel" leaves Christ out. It teaches people that if they perform well enough (receiving baptism [here the false doctrine of infant baptism is taught] attend mass, partake in sacraments, pray to the dead [i.e. Mary and the other saints], confess sins to a priest, do good works) that they will some day pass through the fires of purgatory after hundreds of years an enter into heaven. And there is no debating the fact that the catholic church has for centuries teaches these things.

Rick, I agree with you that as humans we will always see things differently no matter what church we attend (even within the same church), and that there are time we simply must agree to disagree agreeably. But there is coming a day when every one of us will stand before Christ and give an account for the Truth that was given us on this Earth. So let me ask you, if you were to die right now, and stand before God, and He were to ask you "Why should I let you into my heaven?", what would you say?

In Christ,
Elder Greg Madden
-----Answer-----
Rick,

Once again thank you for your civility.

As to the "should" in my scenario, by that I do not imply one's merit, but one's reasoning for entrance into God's heaven. And if I read your answer correctly, you tied your faith with works (merit). You wrote "My Faith has been in you...AND...I have...STRIVED...to be Your good and faithful servant" What I hear you saying is that you would say to God that "He should let you into heaven because you have faith in Him AND you performed/earned through my good works". Is this correct?

The link that you sent me asked for a log in. Perhaps there is another site? Also, though I do not consider myself a catholic "scholar", I have studied this religion well enough to know that it is a backslidden Christian church that has allowed idolatry, paganism, and the traditions of it's historical fathers to frame it core doctrines instead of the Scriptures themselves.

Rick, I will try to look at your homepage later. Please feel free to write back.

In Christ,
Elder Greg Madden  

Answer
Rick,

I too am enjoying our conversation (in spite of the difficulties of this format). Though for me, it works best because of my work responsibilities. Work, answer question, work, answer question, ect...
As I said before, I will try to look at your web page as I get the opportunity. Though I did get a chance to briefly browse the vatican catechism site. I have read over must of it before, and did not find anything that has changed my views.

In Christ,
Elder Greg Madden