Expert: Andrew - 1/30/2008

Question
QUESTION: My girlfriend and I have been dating for over 3 years.  We've been living together for the past 7 months.  I've known that she grew up as a Jehovah Witness since we started dating but she assured me she would never return to the JW's. Well as I mentioned before we've been living together for the past 7 months but not until a week and a half ago did she tell her Dad. 4 days after telling her Dad she comes to me and tells me she is going to start attending bible studys again with a JW.  She said that deciding to start studying the Bible again has nothing to to with her Dad and that she has been having these feelings for several weeks. At first I became angry and I researched and presented her with writings by ex- JW's. She told me she knew all of the things I was presenting to her and wouldnt even look at it. After a couple days I calmed down and decided that if this is truly what she wants then I will support her with it. I've made it clear to her however that I will never be a JW and that I will never attend a bible study nor attend a Kingdom Hall meeting. Since then we've agreed to start seeing an independent non-religious relationship counselor.  We've agreed that we love each other enough to try and make this work. I asked her if she felt her Dad will be supportive of her decision to try and make this work and she feels he will be. She told that when she discussed telling me with her Dad and Step-Mom that she is going to start studying the bible with the JW's, they told her that if I loved her I would support her and try to work through this. Her parents are divorced (not because of religion but because her Dad cheated on her Mom and got another woman pregnant and left her Mom for the other woman while he was a JW) and her Mom is an ex JW and they have a pretty good relationship.  I've also been talking to mutual friends of ours and have asked them to go out of their way to spend time with my girlfriend.  I've also encouraged my girlfriend to start going out and spending more time with her friends. (none of which are JW's) Another thing is that she told me yesterday she going to plan a birthday party for a friend. Also, we are still having sex on a regular basis.  She says she loves me and wants to stay together and make this relationship work.  Are we doing the right thing? Can I expect support from her family? What should I be on the lookout for? She's says there are families in every congregation where one spouse is a JW and the other is not, is that true? Are there any other steps we should be taking to make our relationship work? Any help or suggestions you can offer would be great.  The more I can educate myself on JW's the better.

ANSWER: Dear Ben,

I'm sorry you've had this difficult turn of events. Thank you for contacting me. I hope I can help you navigate these strange waters successfully, by offering you specific information so your response to this turn of events can be fully informed.

It's remarkable how often I hear of experiences like yours. By this I mean an unrecovered former Witness enters a relationship, promising she will never go back to the Witnesses, then changes her mind and decides to work toward reinstatement, thereby complicating new relationships. I can only surmise that the common patterns in your experience and those of others I've heard from point to similar underlying causes. My responses to you are based on that premise.

Keep in mind Witnesses are not intentionally deceptive, but rather are conditioned in a deceptive and manipulative environment that uses very convoluted reasoning. Since they have come to regard that environment as "normal", and even "truthful", their deceptive behavior is for the most part unintentional and automatic. This makes it complicated because even when your girlfriend means to tell you the truth, and you believe her sincerety, what if she is not telling HERSELF the truth about her own heart and her own values and her own core personality? Then how can she tell YOU the truth, even when she intends to be sincere? She can't.

> My girlfriend and I have been dating for over
> 3 years.  We've been living together for the
> past 7 months.  I've known that she grew up as
> a Jehovah Witness since we started dating but
> she assured me she would never return to the
> JW's.

She probably said that because most unrecovered former Witnesses believe they are on a path toward death at Armageddon as enemies of God. The organization (her upbringing) has taught her that if she ever left the organization, this would be the case. I don't believe it's possible to EVER overcome that mindset without working at it, and most former Witnesses never really work at their recovery, or realize they need to.

So even though she may have been angry at how she was treated as a Witness, she probably still (at some level) bought into the foolish notion that she became an "enemy of God" by leaving the Witnesses. Since she may have felt there wasn't much she could do about it, or because she was angry and wasn't willing to, she may have simply blocked it out of her mind.

Until a talk with Daddy brings back all those memories and social conditioning and makes her remember she is now an "enemy of God". Then she starts to think that Daddy's invitation may be her last chance to survive death at the hands of a vindictive God at Armageddon, which is just weeks or months away. (It has been "just around the corner" for over a century now, thanks to a series of near-future false prophecies by the Witness leadership.)

Of course I don't know enough about your girlfriend specifically to say this is true in her case, but rather I am speculating that her inner process may be similar to those of other persons in similar cases I have been involved with.

> Well as I mentioned before we've been living
> together for the past 7 months but not until
> a week and a half ago did she tell her Dad.

She didn't tell her Dad for 7 months because he would be expected to react judgementally. Premarital sex is not tolerated among Witnesses, and is in fact the primary reason for their tens of thousands of expulsions each year.

Makes it hard to have easy-going family relations when she's hiding the fact that you're together, doesn't it? I'm sorry. My family has been distorted and twisted similarly, so this is not merely academic to me. I am painfully aware of how difficult it is.

> 4 days after telling her Dad she comes to me
> and tells me she is going to start attending
> bible studys again with a JW. She said that
> deciding to start studying the Bible again
> has nothing to to with her Dad and that she
> has been having these feelings for several
> weeks.

Well it may be partially true for her to say this. It may not be what her Dad was saying in that recent moment, but rather how he brought back the memories from her upbringing and made real for her again the things she had been blocking out of her mind for years. Thinking about other things is not an effective path to recovery, as her experience seems to demonstrate.

> At first I became angry

TRUST YOUR ANGER! In this case, it is your truest ally. Your anger and your intuition are immune to deception. You are about to be immersed in a system of incredibly sophisticated deception, so a conciliatory attitude only puts you at greater risk.

The world needs more angry men to do something about injustices rather than putting up with them in order to be "socially acceptable" lap dogs to deceptive manipulators. "Socially acceptable" is unacceptable in a screwed up social order. (Feels good to get that off my chest, thanks. Now back to your situation....)

> and I researched and presented her with
> writings by ex- JW's.

That can be dangerous, depending on where she's at. If she is still independent enough in her thought process to think for herself, then presenting her with the writings of XJW's may help her reclaim her mind. On the other hand, if she is in a mode of trying to conform to Witness mind again, it could backfire. She may begin to think of you as an agent of the Devil, just because you showed her material written by persons who oppose the Witnesses. In their mindset, the Witness organization directly represents God, and therefore anyone opposed to it directly represents the Devil. It's a very black-and-white world they live in.

So you risk making yourself look like an agent of the Devil by showing her written material opposing the Witnesses. They actually teach this in very direct and explicit terms to new recruits. It is one of the very first lessons in their "free home Bible study", which really amount to early indoctrination sessions into Witness mind.

> She told me she knew all of the things I was
> presenting to her and wouldnt even look at it.

The fact that she wouldn't look at it is an important indicator. It shows that:

(1) She may be afraid of it because she considers it "dangerous". Notably, information can only be "dangerous" to those who are maintaining a mental house of cards, so it may indeed be dangerous, not because of it's inherent content but because she is trying to maintain that house of cards.

(2) Most importantly, she is certainly attempting to conform to Witness expectations, and therefore she certainly is unrecovered and perhaps really is serious about wanting to work toward reinstatement. She is not independent in her thought process, but is very dependent on the dogma and approval of the Witnesses (otherwise would be comfortable looking at all sides). This is a very bad sign, in spite of the fact that she has many non-Witness friends and a normal sex life. It would not surprise me if she soon dumps all her non-Witness friends and becomes celibate because the Witnesses expect her to do so.

Witnesses generally do not really know anything about the statements of non-Witnesses because the Witness leadership has framed such statements as meaningless lashing out by those who are bitter and blaming and actually responsible for their own suffering. Of course this is one-sided and sophistic, but it serves the purpose of making Witnesses close their mind to the other side of the story and maintain their mental house of cards.

> After a couple days I calmed down and decided
> that if this is truly what she wants then I will
> support her with it.

That sounds nice but how can she ever really know what she wants when she's being subjected to a deceptive and manipulative environment that uses hopelessly convoluted teachings to make people throw up their hands and voluntarily give up their critical thinking faculties? She cannot. No one makes a fully informed decision to be deceived and manipulated.

The success of the Witnesses depends on catching them at a weak moment and overwhelming the true wishes of the new recruit (and former members seeking reinstatement). If your girlfriend was raised as a Witness, she has probably never known--her whole life--what it means to know what she really wants. So I really don't think you're doing her a favor by supporting this as if it's what she really wants. It isn't.

You are probably her best hope at escaping the clutches of these deceptive people. Your choice, I think, is not whether to accept this as "her wishes" but whether to fight the hardest fight of your life because she's worth it--or cut your losses and walk away, having only invested 3 years. Yes "only"; some of us invested far more than that before finding out what a waste it was.

> I've made it clear to her however that I
> will never be a JW and that I will never attend
> a bible study nor attend a Kingdom Hall meeting.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that! I'm glad you feel such a strong resolve, but it is not enough. They know how to work on a strong mind like yours over time, just like the waves erode solid rocks at the seashore. They have been perfecting their system of deception and manipulation for a very long time, and they are very good at it. Cults work for a reason.

You need more than resolve. You need to understand how cult mind control works, so you can see it coming and make an informed choice when it impacts on you. A fully informed mind is the best vaccination, yet very few people really understand how cult mind control works, so they do not see it coming.

It's not impossibly nebulous and undefinable, rather it just takes a little focus and effort. Perhaps for the first time in your life, you now have a solid reason to exert that focus and effort. If you are not walking away from this relationship, you MUST now really learn what cult mind control is, and how it works. Reading a book or two is a good start. Start with "Releasing the Bonds" by Steven Hassan.

> Since then we've agreed to start seeing an
> independent non-religious relationship counselor.  
> We've agreed that we love each other enough to try
> and make this work.

If there were only you and she, that might work. If it were only you and she and non-Witness friends, it might work. But remember how it took only an hour with dear old Dad to bring back a lifetime of memories, her hidden belief system?

Even one brief contact can trigger her. On top of that, cults practice what is called "milieu control". With some cults this means living on-campus. In the case of the Witnesses, it means exclusive socializing (Witness with Witness only), and cutting ties with non-Witness relatives, and keeping them so busy with church activities that they don't have time for a normal outside support system.

As long as she has contact with the Witnesses, no amount of counselling will help.

There is one hope however: Kill two birds with one stone by choosing a "relationship" counsellor also has experience with recovery from cult mind control. Then you'll have someone in your corner; and together you and the counsellor may be able to help your girlfriend see her situation more clearly. The cult recovery issue is FAR more important to your relationship than immediate relationship counselling, because it is the one factor that stands to destroy your future happiness as a couple more profoundly than any other.

But even if you like this idea, still select a counsellor carefully. Just like a MD who looks down his nose on chiropractors and acupuncturists, some counsellors don't believe cult mind control exists, because they've never experienced it and their training doesn't prepare them for it. Other counsellors understand cult mind control and how how to support a person in recovery. Don't expect a forceful intervention, as that would be illegal, but you can make private phone calls to the counsellor and make sure you have the right counsellor before you begin!

> I asked her if she felt her Dad will be supportive
> of her decision to try and make this work and she
> feels he will be.

This is not at all consistent with my experience about the behavior of Witnesses in her Dad's position. If he goes along with it, it will only be a pretense, in order to manipulate her into gradually more and more conformity. Witness parents NEVER rest easy knowing their child is married to a non-Witness, because their dogma directly teaches that his child's life is at risk as long as she is married to you, because there's a grave risk you will influence her to abandon God. And they're right, you may try to influence her to leave the Witnesses, seeing how deceptive and misguided they are; but THIS DOES NOT MEAN ABANDONING GOD, because their organization is not God.

> She told that when she discussed telling me with
> her Dad and Step-Mom that she is going to start
> studying the bible with the JW's, they told her
> that if I loved her I would support her and try to
> work through this.

It doesn't take much experience to see that this is a manipulative statement. Why do people so often challenge each other to "prove" their love? Why do they equate "proof of love" with doing what the observer thinks is the right thing to do? The observer in this case is completely buried in cult mind, and therefore not qualified to determine what is the right thing to do, or what outcome true love would produce.

Further, Witnesses know nothing about true love. They actually teach that unconditional love is wrong. Yes, explicitly! And they make it sound plausible. So never take their word for it about love, and don't expect your girlfriend to be able to love as a normal human being does, if she pursues her reinstatement. She will not be able to.

The only healthy way to "work through this" is for your girlfriend to begin a real recovery from her cult experience, and she cannot begin her recovery unless she chooses to. So what you do and say over the coming weeks is pivotal, because you have a rare opportunity to help her see the truth and begin recovery, or not.

If not, your life will suffer immeasurably.

> Her parents are divorced (not because of religion
> but because her Dad cheated on her Mom and got
> another woman pregnant and left her Mom for the
> other woman while he was a JW)

So even though Dad committed a big faux pas, and got nailed for it, he's still a true believer in Witness mind. This tells me that he might be a little more understanding about his daughter living "in sin" with you these last 7 months, but you probably have no idea how intolerant Witnesses NORMALLY are about this. He may be better than the baseline for a Witness, but even the baseline is alarming!

> her Mom is an ex JW and they have a pretty good
> relationship.  

That's excellent news! If the Mom is working at her recovery, or at least a bitter opposer of the Witnesses, then Mom will be in your corner as you try to help your girlfriend see the error of rejoining the Witnesses. If mom is easygoing/accepting about the Witnesses, then she may do more harm than good by influencing her daughter to be accepting too. If mom plays into the stereotype of a misguided former Witness speaking only out of their own bitterness, then she may do more harm than good by unwittingly reinforcing the Witness stereotype that causes Witnesses to close their minds to whatever a former Witness might say.

> I've also been talking to mutual friends of ours and
> have asked them to go out of their way to spend time
> with my girlfriend.  I've also encouraged my
> girlfriend to start going out and spending more time
> with her friends. (none of which are JW's)

Good, good. How committed are they? Will they read a book to learn how to support her? Buy them copies of "Releasing the Bonds" by Steven Hassan. If not, at least they are a support system for her to turn to if she decides she doesn't want to rejoin the Witnesses. Protect that support system! If they're casual but good friends, don't let the stigma of "icky cult entanglement" make them turn away from your girlfriend. They may not be ready to hear that she is getting involved with a cult. Whatever you do, protect that support system!

One of the fundamental methods cults use to make members dependent on the organization is by eliminating the outside support system so they have no one to turn to except the cult. If your girlfriend continues pursuing her reinstatement as a Witness, she will eventually turn her back on her non-Witness friends. But perhaps your best hope of helping her avoid descending that far is to make sure her friends don't do it first.

> Another thing is that she told me yesterday she going
> to plan a birthday party for a friend. Also, we are
> still having sex on a regular basis.  

So she's still doing normal things, but if she continues pursuing her reinstatement with the Witnesses, it won't take long for her to drop these normal behaviors as she gradually conforms more and more to Witness mind again, which she will HAVE TO do in order to rejoin.

> She says she loves me and wants to stay together and
> make this relationship work. Are we doing the right
> thing?

Only you can decide if it's the right decision for you. Depends on whether you are up for the hardest fight of your life, that is, the most complex maze you've ever walked through. If she's worth it, then read the books and do what it takes. If she continues to pursue her reinstatement as a Witness, your life together will never be normal, she will never quite be "herself", you will not have any friends in common, or you'll gradually give in and become a Witness too.

They know how to make their dogma seem plausible and gradually it will seem more and more plausible to you.

> Can I expect support from her family?

Her Witness family? Absolutely not. Witnesses do not count non-Witnesses as equals. There is a fierce and condescending us-vs-them mentality. You are a lower life form to be tolerated at best. Remember, in their minds, you are about to be killed by God himself at Armageddon because of your evil ways. Doesn't give them much motivation to treat you decently as a neighbor, does it? You are "the threat" hanging over your girlfriend's head, or the spiritual "dullard" who never knows better and needs a pat on the head.

Support from her XJW Mom? Depends, see above.

> What should I be on the lookout for?

See above. Read the book. Don't expect this to be like anything you have ever faced before. Don't trust yourself. Common sense does not apply. The sophistication of these mind games that are light years beyond common sense.

> She's says there are families in every
> congregation where one spouse is a JW and
> the other is not, is that true?

Yes, it's true; and even the spouse who is a devout Witness is treated like a black sheep by the congregation, or pitied at best. If you have kids, they will be treated like black sheep too. The other Witness kids will not be allowed to come over because their parents count YOU as a bad influence.

> Are there any other steps we should be taking to
> make our relationship work? Any help or suggestions
> you can offer would be great.  

What do you mean by "make our relationship work"? If you mean a healthy relationship, where partners treat each other as equals, emotionally open with one another, intellectually honest with one another, planning a life together with hope for the future, sharing mutual friends, raising happy children, THEN THE ONLY WAY IT WILL EVER WORK IS IF SHE RECOVERS FROM HER WITNESS EXPERIENCE. It will never happen while she remains a Witness.

> The more I can educate myself on JW's the better.

Attaboy. Read the book.

Blessings,
AndrewXJW

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hi Andrew,

Thank you for answering my question, the information you provided has been invaluable. I have been reading 'Crisis Of Conscious' by Raymond Franz and plan on reading 'Releasing The Bonds' next.  

My girlfriend told me last night that she had had a talk with her Dad and one of the things they talked about was mine and hers relationship.  She told him that we've decided to take things one day at a time and go to professional counseling. He told her that she needed to be careful and that he thinks the real issue of what's going on between us is a control issue.  I scoffed when she told me this and asked how exactly am I being controlling and she said for instance when she told about studying the bible with the JW's I got angry. She said that all she wants to do is study the bible with the JW's and that she never said she wants to be a JW. I asked her if she really thought this might not be an issue if our relationship progresses and she said that as long as I am not religious she doesn't see how it could be.  I told her that I may not be religious right now but I am spiritual and I do see myself partaking in a Christian Church eventually. I don't like the idea of committing to any particular religion. I said the Bible is very symbolic and much of what is written is up to individual interpretation. She agreed and said that she is simply looking for the truth and that if I had a particular view of a piece of scripture that I explain it to her and then let her decide for herself what she believes. Her saying that caught me off guard as everything I've read so far says that JW's are not open to difference's of opinion.

We then discussed rather or not Christmas should be celebrated and decided that neither one of us knew enough to really debate it. We then decided that we should go talk to someone who can explain why Christmas is celebrated and how Christians support it. I also agreed that we would meet with someone who thinks Christmas should not be celebrated. I told her I will not go to a bible study or to a meeting that it will simply be an explanation of beliefs. I've decided that we will go talk to my uncle about why Christians celebrate Christmas. My uncle is a great guy. He has a very strong understanding of what the bible says but does not agree with any one particular religion. My girlfriend has always said how much she likes my uncle and his family. My unlce said he is not going to lecture us about how one thing is right and thing is wrong but will explain to us why he celebrates Christmas and how he came into a relationship with God. He said it is not his place to judge what is right and wrong but will explain his experiences and how those experiences led him to where he is today.

I found this very encouraging that my girlfriend is open to hearing differences of opinion and is not (for now) taking the watch tower as the only valid interpretation. I've also been saturating my girlfriend with as much love as possible.  Last week we spent almost every night doing something or going out someplace together. If we weren't together she was out with her non JW friends.

One last thing I almost forgot is last week she came home from her first bible study crying.  She seemed very confused and frustrated. She walked in the door and sat down on my lap and started crying on my shoulder. Any idea what might be going in that bible study to do that to her?

Thank you for taking the time to reply to my questions, you've been extremely helpful! Do you mind letting me know what you think of everything I've told you and what you think I should do next? Is taking her to my uncle a good or bad idea or should we go to someone about the Christmas explanation who does not have ties to me?

ANSWER: Dear Ben,

> Thank you for taking the time to reply to my questions,
> you've been extremely helpful! Do you mind letting me know
> what you think of everything I've told you and what you
> think I should do next?

I'm glad I can help. Remember I told you "you are about to be immersed in a system of incredibly sophisticated deception". It is already occurring with this accusation against you that you have "control issues".

When someone accuses you of having "control issues", they are exercising manipulative control by making such an accusation. The desired result of such an accusation is to make the accused disown his own power and natural responses. The natural anger of the accused, resulting from an objective injustice, is diffused and reoriented. This is obviously a form of external control, not by you upon your girlfriend, but by your girlfriend and her father upon you.

Where do you suppose they learned that tactic? Our post-modernist anti-objectivist world actually discourages critical thinking and undermines natural responses (increasing depression), and unfortunately this is fertilizer for cults. So the habit of manipulating and controlling others that your girlfriend and her father are exercising come from the cult, and this particular tactic of accusing someone of being a "control freak" comes from the collective mind of our post-modernist mainstream world. Sometimes the world adds fuel to cult behaviors; and in some respects the mainstream world practices cult tactics.

Men are not inherently more controlling, yet they are accused more often. It is proper for men to exercise their own power over themselves and their own environment. People impact one another. It is unavoidable. And the more intimately we live together, the greater the impacts.

So by using your power to influence your girlfriend, you are exercising power over your own life. There is nothing wrong with that. She certainly does. All people should exercise their own power. The question is not whether the tendency exists or should exist. The question is whether we use our power in right ways.

You want what's best for her, right? When you can see she is making a fully informed decision about her own private life, you would respect her decision, right? When making decisions that deeply impact your life together, the decision should be made jointly, right? Does she feel she can and should make joint decisions unilaterally?

So you would not use (and have not used) your power in an abusive way. The underlying question that deserves answering, which manipulators have obfuscated is this: "Should Ben use his power at all or become passive so others can have their way?" Once the question becomes crystal clear, I think you the answer becomes obvious.

I never advocate deception, and I don't normally advocate manipulation, that is, covertly steering situations rather than overtly asking for what we want, because usually forthrightness works better, is more refreshing, is healthier in relationships, and honors the conscious choice and free will of other parties.

But what if overt requests do not work because our listener is not in control of their own faculties? What if we have to use manipulation in order to eventually reach that refreshing forthrightness, in order to achieve a healthy relationship, in order to liberate the conscious choice and free will of another? In these special circumstances, I believe manipulation is justified.

Do not feel guilty that you may have to manipulate situations in order to help your girlfriend wake up. She will thank you later. You still wouldn't lie to her. She is using manipulation on you, and probably doesn't realize she is doing so. Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.

> He told her that she needed to be careful

Witnesses oppose marriage counsellors. The leadership knows that any therapist can potentially help member Witnesses get clear about their mental process, which would mean undermining the control that the leadership exercises over the members, because control depends on an intentionally-created quagmire of mental processes. So the leadership teaches the members to irrationally oppose any and all counselling that doesn't come from the Witness leadership. They frame such opposition as "knowing better" because they "know God", and use devices like labelling the message by the source. They figure since counsellors are not trained by God through bible study at Watchtower headquarters, they cannot possibly be a source of anything worthwhile.

Witnesses do not see marriage counsellors. They see their congregation elders when they're having marital problems. Of course the elders are not adequately trained to offer such support, but at least they can reinforce the organization's control over the members.

Your girlfriend's father is afraid he will lose his recently-regained control over his daughter if she goes to a relationship counsellor. His fears are well-founded. He might lose control. But his conclusion is ill-founded. It would be good for her. He should not be trying to control his adult daughter's life.

> She said that all she wants to do is study the bible with
> the JW's and that she never said she wants to be a JW.

Another deception. If your girlfriend grew up as a Witness, she knows full well that studying the Bible with them is a step to becoming a Witness. There is no way she could not know this. She is again manipulating you to restrain your natural response so she can get what she thinks she wants.

> I asked her if she really thought this might not be an
> issue if our relationship progresses and she said that as
> long as I am not religious she doesn't see how it could
> be.  I told her that I may not be religious right now but
> I am spiritual and I do see myself partaking in a
> Christian Church eventually. I don't like the idea of
> committing to any particular religion.

The litmus tests and defensiveness begin. Notice how she has already set herself up as judge and jury, and you are now on the defense to prove you're "good enough" for her in terms of your spiritual sensibilities. Judgementalism goes to the heart of what it means to be a Witness, and this will get more and more severe as time goes on.

If either member of an intimate partnership decide to embrace an open, non-dogmatic path, it does not really affect the other partner, and can be a private matter they need not agree on. But a fundamentalist dogmatic path, and especially a cult like this is, dramatically affects the partnership, so should it not be a joint decision? Should not your joint spiritual exploration be an open innocent wondering exploration between equals? Yet she is in the driver's seat by making herself judge and jury, and you are enabling this by dignifying it with a response. By responding to self-justify you validate her self-appointment. By not responding you validate her negative conclusions about you.

The only meaningful response is to show her she is not your judge and jury. "Releasing the Bonds" will teach you how to talk to her.

> I said the Bible is very symbolic and much of what is
> written is up to individual interpretation.

The Witnesses do not believe in individual interpretation. They believe their organization speaks for God, and there is only one "right" way for every thought and action. One has to relinquish the right to make up one's own mind in order to become a Witness. The greatest sin in the Witness "talmud" is called "Independent Thinking". It's an all-or-nothing deal.

> She agreed and said that she is simply looking for the
> truth and that if I had a particular view of a piece of
> scripture that I explain it to her and then let her decide
> for herself what she believes. Her saying that caught me
> off guard as everything I've read so far says that JW's
> are not open to difference's of opinion.

You were right, they are not open to differences of opinion. But the real issue is NOT what she believes about spirituality. The real issue is whether the Witnesses are controlling her and whether she can recognize that control.

You cannot show her how she is being controlled by discussing the bible, because it is a diversion. In order to show her why the Witnesses are wrong, you would need to discuss organizational policy, not spiritual doctrine. You will be ready to begin showing her that after reading "Releasing the Bonds". Don't try before you finish that book.

She is not ready to begin satisfying her spiritual need and start looking for spiritual truth until she reclaims her own mind. As long as she is under the influence of her father and the Witnesses, she will see all spiritual ideas through the lens of Witness mind. She has to reclaim her own mind first, in order to ever begin to grow and explore spiritually. You cannot tell her that, as she will not be able to hear it.

This is a pivotal crossroads. There is no time to waste. Read your books quickly.

> We then discussed rather or not Christmas should be
> celebrated and decided that neither one of us knew enough
> to really debate it. We then decided that we should go
> talk to someone who can explain why Christmas is
> celebrated and how Christians support it. I also agreed
> that we would meet with someone who thinks Christmas
> should not be celebrated. I told her I will not go to
> a bible study or to a meeting that it will simply be
> an explanation of beliefs. I've decided that we will
> go talk to my uncle about why Christians celebrate
> Christmas. My uncle is a great guy. He has a very
> strong understanding of what the bible says but does not
> agree with any one particular religion.

You cannot have an academic "explanation of beliefs" and achieve clarity while the Witness influence looms overhead. You are both focused on the wrong issues. Can you wash dishes and get them clean in a dirty sink? No, you wash the sink first, then you can expect to get the dishes clean in that sink. Likewise, you and your girlfriend cannot effectively make a joint decision about what you feel is right regarding Christmas, either theoretically or pragmatically, until she frees herself from this entanglement with a religious cult. The cult will color her perspective on everything she says and does because they have a sanctioned answer for everything, and are teaching her that it is proper for her to behave in judgemental ways, making joint decisions impossible.

Most reprehensibly, they are claiming to speak for God in a quite direct way, so if she buys into that claim even in the slightest, how can she discover any true connection to God (which is ever so subtle by it's very nature)?

You are talking to her without first learning HOW to talk to her. That's what "Releasing the Bonds" is for. You will destroy your prospects by saying the wrong things. That is the biggest danger. That ruins SO MANY relationships where healing might have been possible. Stop talking to her about things that matter until you finish "Releasing the Bonds".

> My girlfriend has always said how much she likes my
> uncle and his family. My unlce said he is not going to
> lecture us about how one thing is right and thing is
> wrong but will explain to us why he celebrates Christmas
> and how he came into a relationship with God. He said it
> is not his place to judge what is right and wrong but
> will explain his experiences and how those experiences led
> him to where he is today....Is taking her to my uncle a
> good or bad idea or should we go to someone about the
> Christmas explanation who does not have ties to me?

The opposite of judgementalism is unconditional love. Your uncle's manner could make a positive impression on her if she realizes now non-judgemental he is, how he unconditionally loves his friends and neighbors. This is an experience Witnesses are hungry for, and if your girlfriend was raised a Witness, she may yet be hungry for. Ask your uncle to focus on non-judgementalism, absolute acceptance, and neighbor love; and not to get stuck in intellectual analysis of issues or dogmatically embracing one perspective as if that were what matters. He mustn't let himself be baited into a debate, but rather pat the debator on the head and practice love. I can see that possibly creating a beneficial effect for your girlfriend. But it's probably not enough by itself.

> I found this very encouraging that my girlfriend is open
> to hearing differences of opinion and is not (for now)
> taking the watch tower as the only valid interpretation.

Good, good.

> I've also been saturating my girlfriend with as much love
> as possible.  Last week we spent almost every night doing
> something or going out someplace together. If we weren't
> together she was out with her non JW friends.

She's manipulating you as they do. She's studying the bible with them to become one of them. She's surrounding herself with Witness "friends" (who really only condescend to be with her as a manipulation because they believe she's going to become a Witness). Your situation is very grave!

> One last thing I almost forgot is last week she came home
> from her first bible study crying.  She seemed very
> confused and frustrated. She walked in the door and sat
> down on my lap and started crying on my shoulder. Any idea
> what might be going in that bible study to do that to her?

Could be many possible causes. If she didn't say word one, I can't tell which of their mind games is distressing her. All you know for sure is that something about the bible study is getting through to her. If she continues pursuing her bible study, you can bet it was not in your favor.

Read fast, Ben, your window of opportunity is closing, or may already have closed. I hope not.

Best wishes,
AndrewXJW

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: > I've also been saturating my girlfriend with as much love
> as possible.  Last week we spent almost every night doing
> something or going out someplace together. If we weren't
> together she was out with her non JW friends.

She's manipulating you as they do. She's studying the bible with them to become one of them. She's surrounding herself with Witness "friends" (who really only condescend to be with her as a manipulation because they believe she's going to become a Witness). Your situation is very grave!


She hasn't spent any time with any JW's except for her 1 hour bible study. She doesn't have any JW friends. She went out to a movie and to a bar with girlfriends, none of which are JW's. Did you misread what I said about her spending time with her friends? We live in southern California and all her family is in northern California. Do you still think this situation is very grave?

Answer
Oh, I see. Yes, I misread the one line. I thought you wrote she "was out with her JW friends".

This is a little better that she's out with NON-JW friends frequently and the family is far away. But I still think your situation is grave. If it was 90% critical in my estimation before, it's still 75% critical now with this clarification. Your timing is still essential. She could go either way, and now is your opportunity to save your relationship. Later it will be too late.

She has at least one JW who will act like a friend, the one who conducts her bible study. She will bring with her other Witnesses to act like "friends", and her new circle of JW "friends" will grow from there. They use a technique called "love bombing", which is a kind of false friendship meant to make a new recruit feel welcomed, as a manipulation to influence them to join. It's not real, however, because when the rubber hits the road, you find out they were never really friends to begin with.

The Witnesses tend to network with one another from remote distances, so it wouldn't be surprising at all to find that her father, living in Northern California, may have contacted a congregation of Witnesses near his daughter in Southern California to "check up on her" and ask the local Witnesses to "encourage" her. They would be all too eager to comply with such a request. It would not be surprising to find that her father and the local Witness conducting the bible study with your girlfriend have each other's phone numbers.

If you're in a position to negotiate, I suggest you ask for the bible study to be conducted one-on-one, with no helpers to gang up on your girlfriend or present themselves as false friends. Remember to choose your counsellor carefully, get someone who has cult recovery experience. Your relationship counsellor may be your greatest ally in this, if chosen carefully. Do you need help to find a counsellor who offers both relationship and cult-recovery support?

Good luck Ben. If you do your homework and are willing to put in enough effort, you might have a chance. I'm doing all I can to offer insider information and expose their mind games so you will have a fighting chance, but there are no guarantees.

Best wishes,
AndrewXJW