Expert: Andrew - 12/12/2008

Question
QUESTION: I have been looking at many of your past answers and your profile.  Your main objection to cults (eg Jehovah’s Witnesses) is their mind control tactics.

How is your expertise relevant for Christians who believe the Bible to be from God and yet you do no believe the Bible to be from God?

The cults such as JWs say they base their teachings on the Bible.  They will produce many scriptures that say we humans have to obey God and do as he says.  In my own Bible reading I have seen texts that talk about changing ones way of life.  I want to quote a couple.  Ephesians 6:22-24 “ 22Put off your old nature which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful lusts, 23  and be renewed in the spirit of your minds, 24  and put on the new nature, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.”  And Colossians 3:9,10 “9 Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old nature with its practices 10 and have put on the new nature, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator.”
 
I understand from that, that a person has to make changes if they want to be a Christian.  Would you say that is a form of mind control to change ones old nature from being corrupt and deceitful to a new nature created by God?

I ask that because you often advocate a freedom of mind. If a person was to let God control the thinking is that a dangerous mind control situation?. Changing ones thinking is what apparently is being preached in the following verses  
Ro 1:21 “ for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened.”
1Co 14:20  Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; be babes in evil, but in thinking be mature.

I can fully understand your reasoning if you are warning non religious people from talking to cults or any Christians.  But how does your message help Christians who believe the Bible to be the word of God, when different small cults and larger Christian religions, base their philosophies on the Bible?  I do not know of any Christians that do not follow some law from the Bible.  Are they all under the influence of a dangerous mind control situation?

If you were a Bible believing Christian and you were able to point to practices that go against the Bible to prove mind control your work would be more meaningful would it not.

Cheers

ANSWER: Dear Sean,

My area of expertise and outreach efforts involve organizations which employ cult mind control to impair family relations and the universal principle of free choice, especially the Jehovah's Witnesses, because theirs is the organization I have the most experience with.

One of the mistakes I made when I was a Witness, and have since learned better, was to think that it was my proper place to reorient the spiritual sensibilities of others. It is not my place to do that. During my recovery process, I decided that my spiritual views are a private personal matter, not open to public review or debate.

It does not belong to any man to reorient the spiritual sensibilities of another. There are four main problems with attempting to do so:

1) God's spirit touches the human spirit, inspiring faith, does it not? To take this wondrous experience and twist it into an intellectual and structured behavioral form is to distort the meaning of faith. A right-brain experience cannot be addressed by the left brain. The attempt to influence others to have faith is impossible because human language requires the intellectual part of our brains, and is therefore doomed to fail in matters of faith. I cannot touch spirits to inspire them in the wondrous way that God can. I doubt any man can.

2) To assertively attempt to reorient the spiritual sensibilities of another disrespects the life path of the other, and constitutes psychic violence. It violates the scriptural principle of free will. Free will is also a universal principle originating in all faiths, and therefore is not only for Christians. Anyone who seeks to impair the free will of another conscious being is committing an immoral act.

3) To assertively attempt to reorient the spiritual sensibilities of others is fraught with the risk of abuse. Those who would abuse authority for power or profit, or even those who mean well but have limited vision, can abuse others through such assertiveness. Considering the potential for abuse, it is just too dangerous to assertively reorient the spiritual sensibilities of others, or allow others to do so upon us. Throughout human history, a limited perspective of "God's will" has been used as justification by all sorts of malefactors to commit all sorts of injustices.

4) How does any man know exactly what is the right message to deliver in such a context? In many respects, God has left it up to each of us as individuals, with the gifts of an innate conscience and our life experience and sacred scripture which gives many messages about past spiritual experience, to figure out what the message of God is. God does not speak audibly and intellectually using human language, does he? He does not give us logical instructions about what to do and say in a direct, step-by-step way, does he? Are not all sacred scriptures open to interpretation? Not only open to interpretation by the reader but also on the part of those who decided which parts of sacred scripture to canonize, including the (uninspired) Roman Emperor Constantine and the (uninspired) Nicene Council! So unless directly appointed by God as his prophet through audible logical step-by-step guidance in the present, no one has the authority to assertively reorient the spiritual sensibilities of others. If such prophets exist, then many people will stand and testify that they observed their unmistakable appointment by God as his prophet, akin to the miracle of the fishes and loaves. Where is the crowd of people to give evidence that a prophet of God exists today?

I believe those who feel it is their God-given responsibility to preach should focus on praise (how they appreciate God) and inspiring faith as God does (ever so gently and benevolently) and with humility (with wonder rather than dogma); NOT assertive arrogant attempts to reorient others to join me in my intellectual interpretation as if only my intellectual process matters, as if only my faith is correct. Where faith is concerned, intellectual process does not matter. The other person's faith may be just as correct.

The Jehovah's Witnesses are both a cult and a fundamentalist religion. I recognize there are fundamentalist religions which do not practice cult mind control; and they are therefore not within the scope of my usual anti-cult outreach. However, for the reasons outlined above, fundamentalism carries it's own attendant problems; which I hope make sense to you. If they do not make sense to you, that is OK; as we can each go our separate way in peace.

To many persons who have contacted me with comments like yours, this has not been enough. They seem to have expected me to join them to become preachers. If you expect that, I would invite you to ask yourself why it matters. A carpenter would not approach a baker and complain that he is misguided to bake. They would rather appreciate each other, as each is moved to serve his community in his own way. It is OK for you to serve those who come to you and for me to serve those who come to me, each in his own way to the best of his ability, is it not?

I help a lot of people. They tell me so with gratitude, including many people who's messages are not publicly viewable. I am grateful to have the opportunity I do to put my experience to use.

May you have peace,
AndrewXJW

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hello Andrew

Thanks for the quick reply, but I do not feel you actually answered my question.  Your answer is crafted to skirt around my question, perhaps you did not fully understand what I was asking

If you were talking to people who have no belief in the Bible I would fully support what you say.  History of the world and religion is an ample demonstration that shows believing in the Bible  has a mind control effect on its adherences just as any religion does.   Some of the people that ask you questions would appear to be from that group, and in those cases your advice is true and beneficial.

However, many people that ask you questions seem to be Bible believing people.  So how can you as a person who does not believe the Bible to be the word of God give advice about a religious ideology that is seen by many to be based on the Bible without showing how the philosophies encountered by cults is against the book that  you do not hold as being from God?

One thing you said in your reply was  “He [I assume God] does not give us logical instructions about what to do and say in a direct, step-by-step way, does he?”    But  that is the point most Christians DO believe that God has given a direct, step-by-step way to worship him.  The Catholic lady that had here husband wanting to return to the JWs has a strong belief system in the laws of the church.   Her belief system is as much controlling as any religion based on the Bible as well as other non Bible based religions.  

People who are not JWs will still hold the philosophies I mentioned in the first question because they are from the book they hold sacred.  The information you give them would amount to a form of mind control because you are instilling in them your ideologies based on a concept that is fundamentally different .You said “It does not belong to any man to reorient the spiritual sensibilities of another.”   That is what you are doing by  advising idivduals away from a cult that uses the same primary  text as other Christians.

From your time in the JWs you should have enough ammunition to show Bible believing people how the JWs go against the book they have faith in. You are not helping people from your experience of both sides.   In one reply you gave you said something about being free of JWs and were able to look at the other side of the mountain.  That is quite a gift to have, to be able to see both sides.  When we see both sides we get a good perspective.  However your responses are only from the far side. This gives a distorted two dimensional perspective for people that have a Bible Based philosophy.  These people need you experience from the other side as well.  You should be painting a three dimensional picture because you have the experience from both sides.


Cheers


Answer
Dear Sean,

It is your worldview, not mine, that a sharp line of demarcation should be drawn between people who believe the bible to be the literal word of God and those who do not. I do not believe such a sharp line of demarcation is valuable or proper or helpful.

> most Christians DO believe that God has given a direct,
> step-by-step way to worship him

This is a description of fundamentalism. I believe you are mistaken. Most Christians are not fundamentalists, but rather appreciate what they know of God, revere Him, try to live honorable lives, and then humbly leave it to others to decide how to interpret God's will in their lives. That may be a foreign way of thinking to you, but is very common among Christians at large.

Those who believe God has given direct, step-by-step instructions applicable to all and would use psychic or physical violence to bring others into conformity are fundamentalists, and responsible for the greatest of the world's atrocities. You would be well advised not to join them, because by exercising humility, you must admit you really cannot claim any authority to know what God wants.

I know many Catholics who are very open, and some who are very closed in their system of beliefs. I do not take it upon myself to distinguish between them as specially qualified in a particular way, except to note as did Saint Paul that a different style of communication may be required for different audiences. I am usually quite good at distinguishing and adapting my style of communication for a given audience, which you might label as "skirting a question". I adapt quite well until someone with an agenda aggressively pushes hard, and then I have to say less diplomatic things they really aren't ready to hear, and didn't want to hear.

You should not push in this way. Why do you aggressively push people and try to start fights? You have no rights here. I am a volunteer in this forum, and under no obligation to engage you, or anyone else who does not want what I have to offer. I will not engage with you further. Do not be surprised if I reject any further messages from you, since you are only trying to discredit and start fights.

> how can you as a person who does not believe the Bible to be the
> word of God give advice about a religious ideology

You seek to draw this line of demarcation of yours so as discredit me. This is judgemental, narrow minded, and unhelpful. Please stop it.

There are many faithful people who do not believe the Bible to be the LITERAL word of God, and yet still honor the bible because of it's positive effects, and still believe great spiritual teachings and history of God's works are contained therein. I am among them, even though I do not consider it the LITERAL word of God.

I never give advice about religious idealogy. I avoid doing so because I consider it a personal private matter for each person to discover on his own, with whatever support and inspiration God may provide to the individual. I keep myself OUT of that flow for the four reasons I explained in my previous message.

> The information you give them would amount to a form of mind
> control because you are instilling in them your ideologies based on
> a concept that is fundamentally different .You said “It does not
> belong to any man to reorient the spiritual sensibilities of
> another.”   That is what you are doing by  advising idivduals away
> from a cult that uses the same primary  text as other Christians.

This comment betrays a complete lack of understanding about the nature of "mind control". This is not a term that can be honestly redefined in any way you might wish. A person such as myself who disagrees with a perverted form of Christianity (fundamentalism) does not practice any sort of control, much less a specific type, by means of such disagreement. "Cult mind control" is a form of influence that employs a specific set of tactics used together in a strategic way which a remote correspondent cannot possibly employ.

> From your time in the JWs you should have enough ammunition to show
> Bible believing people how the JWs go against the book they have
> faith in. You are not helping people from your experience of both
> sides.

It is not my goal to cause people to adhere more closely to the bible as the literal word of God. That may be your goal. Try to imagine a world in which there are other people doing other good things with different goals; that your goal is not the only valid goal in the world.

> This gives a distorted two dimensional perspective for people that
> have a Bible Based philosophy.  These people need you experience
> from the other side as well.  You should be painting a three
> dimensional picture because you have the experience from both sides.

I could likewise ask you to broaden your perspective and include additional dimensions beyond the bible; for what good it would do. I suspect it would do little good for you, because your vista is the one that is voluntarily limited.

There is no reason I know of to shut down our God-given critical thinking faculties, to narrow our vision and ignore inspiration from God in the present in favor of someone's linguistic interpretation of an inspiration in the remote past. There is no reason I know of to shut down the valuable search and discovery process of agnostics seeking freedom from controlling organizations.

You only seek to recapture minds escaping from one organization in order to enslave them to another.

God doesn't need or want people's minds to conform to perverted forms of faith. God honors freedom, true faith, honesty, family ties, and every other high and noble value. Control and conformity with arrogant literalism is not from God. This forum is not a place for fundamentalists who are perverting the word of God to make false claims about their imagined authority to speak for God.

May every person impacted by such false claims reclaim his mind.

Best wishes,
AndrewXJW