Expert: Andrew - 8/2/2008

Question
QUESTION: You stated;

"of the watershed events in my early recovery was the change in Watchtower position regarding the schedule for the end of the world in 1995"

First off what watchtower gave a date for the end provide the Magazine and page number in your response.

Next you said:

Sure enough, the Society did so in 1995 by redefining the word "generation" (a word which figured prominently in a prior prediction). On reading this back-pedalling in the Watchtower magazine, I remember sitting at a Kingdom Hall and saying half aloud, "You've got to be kidding!" and slouched down into my seat afterward in incredulity and despair.


So basically even if the end had come when you thought guess what ,you would have been destroyed anyway,you were only pretending to serve God,you were only serving with a date in view,such worship is unacceptable and you were lost anyway as I mentioned.

We have 7 million professed witnesses now and not all will be saved many are like you.


You also mentioned :

"prior prediction"

By this statement is shows me you were never in the truth you were just like the Devil still in heaven around holiness until being evicted.


You cant provide not one prediction the WTBTS made in the watchtower,if so let's see it.

As I said you are being exposed now as a liar,you are in touch with the right person now,your arrows are sharp I must admit but mine are sharper and in the course of time you are the one that will be slain spiritually going up against me.

Next you said this:


later learned that the Watchtower Society has repeated this same behavior many times over the past 150 years: 1) Predicting a date, 2) the prediction fails, 3) the Society revises it's position, and finally 4) the Society blames the rank and file for having "misunderstood".


As you can see I'm zeroing in on you ,you are in my sights,
you are in my cross hairs..


Again provide the prediction and dates ,page numbers you claim were made over the past 150 years surly you can provide these as you said:

later learned that the Watchtower Society has repeated this same behavior many times over the past 150 years: 1) Predicting a date, 2) the prediction fails, 3) the Society revises it's position, and finally 4) the Society blames the rank and file for having "misunderstood".


Finally just as I suspected you are in the very organization you once called \Babylon the great/ the main whore which will be destroyed soon at the outbreak of the tribulation.

As you said you were at the point of just giving up religion altogether and Satan led you to his darkness since he is the prince of darkness,you were outside in darkness spiritually ,disgruntled ,disappointed ,depressed discouraged ,disillusioned and ever other kind of Dissed.


I hate to burst your little spiritual bubble but :


"God has guided me to a new experience of faith and relationship to spirit"

No sir the only spiritual guidence you recieved was from the Devil ,right back to the garbage dump of his world religious system .

You are on NOTICE,

YOUR MOVE ,YOU ARE IN CHECK, you are in a mating net ,close to checkmate !




ANSWER: Dear Anonymous,

>> of the watershed events in my early recovery was the
>> change in Watchtower position regarding the schedule
>> for the end of the world in 1995

> First off what watchtower gave a date for the end
> provide the Magazine and page number in your response
> You cant provide not one prediction the WTBTS made in
> the watchtower,if so let's see it.

Oh but I can, and easily too, as anyone who does a Google search on the matter. The Watchtower, Dec 1, 1968, p715, suggests end-of-the-world math as: 1914 AD + 80-year lifespan = Armageddon by 1994:

"It is not reasonable to expect that present favorable conditions for preaching the good news will continue indefinitely. Besides, did not Jesus say that this generation will not pass away until all things are fulfilled? A generation, according to Psalm 90:10, is from seventy to eighty years. The generation that witnessed the end of the Gentile Times in 1914 does not have many more years left."

Also published in 1968 a book called "The Truth That Leads to Eternal Life", which Jehovah's Witnesses used for the next 25 years as their principle text book in "home bible studies". There was an illustration in that book very explicitly teaching the same Armageddon math as the 1968 Watchtower. See illustration:

http://www.bible.ca/1914gen.gif

However, the 1968 Watchtower publications were not mere exceptions; rather these were examples of similar statements made repeatedly. In fact, it was such a frequent topic of consideration that Watchtower publications repeatedly redefined the age of persons alive in 1914 because all Witnesses were calculating in their heads how long before the end of the world, and the only X factor was how old a person had to be in order to "see" the events of 1914 and then survive until Armageddon. (15 years old in 1914: Awake! Oct 8, 1968 p13; babies born in 1914 excluded: Watchtower Oct 1, 1978 p31; 10 years old in 1914: Watchtower Oct 15, 1980 p31; babies born in 1914 INcluded: Watchtower May 15, 1984 p5; still babies born in 1914: Watchtower April 8, 1988 p14)

In view of this oft-repeated prediction, which by 1994 had certainly failed to come true even with the outside figures, the Society decided in 1995 (The Watchtower, Nov 1, 1995, p18) that some damage control was necessary:

"Eager to see the end of this evil system, Jehovah's people have at times speculated about the time when the "great tribulation" would break out, even tying this to calculations of what is the lifetime of a generation since 1914. However, we bring a heart of wisdom in, not by speculating about how many years or days makeup a generation, but by thinking about how we "count our days" in bringing joyful praise to Jehovah."

Notice how this fails to take responsibility for false expectations actually CREATED by Watchtower publications, but instead implies the readers were at fault for believing...exactly what they had been taught. All cult leaders use this same tactic of shifting blame in order to stay in power when their too-good-to-be-true predictions fail to come true.

Page 2 of every Awake! magazine published before November, 1995, read: "Why AWAKE! Is Published...Most important, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator's promise of a peaceful and secure world BEFORE THE GENERATION THAT SAW THE EVENTS OF 1914 PASSES AWAY."

Page 2 of every Awake! magazine published thereafter was changed to read: "Why AWAKE! Is Published...Most important, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator's promise of a peaceful and secure world that is about to replace the present wicked, lawless system of things."

Why did the Awake! magazine change the Page 2 commentary in every issue to eliminate the 1914/generation doctrine?

> As I said you are being exposed now as a liar

Not yet, I'm afraid. I have given exactly the kind of evidence you asked for; and aside from your vehement emotional testimony, you have done nothing whatsoever to disprove anything I have said.

> you are in touch with the right person now, your arrows
> are sharp I must admit but mine are sharper

You're not demonstrating that.

> and in the course of time you are the one that will be
> slain spiritually going up against me.

People are not capable of slaying each other spiritually; and if they were, is that what you would wish to do?

>> later learned that the Watchtower Society has repeated
>> this same behavior many times over the past 150 years:
>> 1) Predicting a date, 2) the prediction fails, 3) the
>> Society revises it's position, and finally 4) the Society
>> blames the rank and file for having "misunderstood".

> Again provide the prediction and dates ,page numbers
> you claim were made over the past 150 years surely you
> can provide these

Yes, I can. Check out this URL for a couple of hundred examples from Watchtower literature:
http://mmoutreachinc.com/jehovahs_witnesses/false_prophecies.html

Best wishes,
AndrewXJW

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: <<<Oh but I can, and easily too, as anyone who does a Google search on the matter. The Watchtower, Dec 1, 1968, p715, suggests end-of-the-world math as: 1914 AD + 80-year lifespan = Armageddon by 1994<<<<

*** w68 12/1 p. 715 Putting First the Preaching of the Good News ***

Besides, did not Jesus say that this generation will not pass away until all things are fulfilled? A generation, according to Psalm 90:10, is from seventy to eighty years. The generation that witnessed the end of the Gentile Times in 1914 does not have many more years left.—Luke 21:24, 32-36.
Where in this statement 1994 is the end? suggesting and predicting are two different things.

>>>Watchtower Oct 1, 1978 p31; 10 years old in 1914<<<<

But you forgot to mentioned what the main point was:



*** w78 10/1 p. 31 Questions from Readers ***

Jesus did not encourage his followers to try to calculate the exact length of this “generation.” (Ps. 90:10) Instead of trying to figure how many more years, at the maximum, there may be until the end, Christians should remember Jesus’ warning: “Keep on the watch . . . because at an hour that you do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming.”—Matt. 24:42-44.


>>>>Notice how this fails to take responsibility for false expectations actually CREATED by Watchtower publications, but instead implies the readers were at fault for believing...exactly what they had been taught. All cult leaders use this same tactic of shifting blame in order to stay in power when their too-good-to-be-true predictions fail to come true.>>>>

>>>>Page 2 of every Awake! magazine published before November, 1995, read: "Why AWAKE! Is Published...Most important, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator's promise of a peaceful and secure world BEFORE THE GENERATION THAT SAW THE EVENTS OF 1914 PASSES AWAY.">>>>


Two points to these statements the first point:


>>when their too-good-to-be-true predictions fail to come true>>

You don't know the difference between a prediction and mere speculation.

A prediction for it to come true has to be from God inspired from him,no where was it claimed any dates mentioned were inspired of God,so then it was speculation.


Here dates and page numbers you overlooked in thumbing thru old Watchtowers:

"We have not the gift of prophecy."
(January 1883, page 425)


Therefore, if The Watchtower is not inspired of God, then how much less so am I. Nor would we have our writings reverenced or regarded as infallible."

(December 15, 1896, page 306)


"We have not the gift of prophecy."

   December 15, 1896, page 306



The brothers preparing these publications are not infallible. Their writings are not inspired as are those of Paul and the other Bible writers".

   February 15, 1981, page 19.



So one has to claim to be a inspired prophet from God in order claim to predict the future and they also have to claim the predictions came directly from God in other words from Gods mouth to his ears as "this is what Jehovah has said" then if the prophecy was false this prophet was false and he was to be put to death.

So from the very beginning we never claimed to predict the future so the journals of the watchtower are not inspired like the bible so dates ,events in the future are mere speculation and subject to change as new light comes for Jehovah.

And as far as people living since 1914 when Gods kingdom was established there are people still living who were 10 years old if you want to get technical.


>>>>People are not capable of slaying each other spiritually; and if they were, is that what you would wish to do?<<<<

In a word YES! YOU ARE MY ENEMY,YOU ARE A ENEMY OF THE TRUTH AND MUST BE SLAIN !!

I'm on to you,more than you realize



<<<Yes, I can. Check out this URL for a couple of hundred examples from Watchtower literature:
http://mmoutreachinc.com/jehovahs_witnesses/false_prophecies.html<<<<


No you check these out and present what you are talking about.


Mate in 1,my next move is CHECKMATE !

Answer
> Where in this statement 1994 is the end? suggesting and predicting
> are two different things.

You are splitting hairs.

> You don't know the difference between a prediction and mere
> speculation.

A speculation repeated and reinforced a thousand times becomes a belief. The local elders, circuit overseers, district overseers, and branch staff carefully keep their finger on the pulse of the rank and file in terms of what beliefs they are embracing. The Society knew full well what beliefs they were promoting. If the speculations of Watchtower publications were creating unintended beliefs, then the Watchtower would have made corrections EARLY when it became apparent those beliefs were being embraced, NOT LATE, only when the prediction failed.

> A prediction for it to come true has to be from God inspired from
> him,no where was it claimed any dates mentioned were inspired of
> God,so then it was speculation.

That's not what Frederick Franz, the eventual president of the Watchtower Society told New York King County Clerk (as recorded in the Court Clerk's record 1940, vol. II 795). Mr. Franz testified that Jehovah God is the editor of The Watchtower magazine: "THE COURT: He asked you who became the editor. F.FRANZ: And it said.. THE COURT: Who became the editor? LAWYER: Who became the editor when this was discontinued? F.FRANZ: Jehovah God."

As per Mr. Franz, The Watchtower magazine was edited by Almighty God himself from 1931 onward in this court testimony. Was he lying to the court? I don't think so. I think he believed what he said, as it is consistent with all the unwritten rules and understood values I learned in my 32 years as a Witness.

Witnesses are expected to believe that the organization is God's mouthpiece, and develop a knee-jerk emotional attachment to the organization itself, just as you have done by calling it your "mother" and becoming enraged at my critique of a mere organization as if I had attacked God....

Which brings us back to the fundamental problem with The Watchtower Society....It is a group of men making illegitimate claims to speak in place of God.

So is your claim of some important difference between "speculation" and "prediction" if any real meaning? Does God's own speculation have any different weight than God's own prediction? When they come from god, these are the same thing. If there is a difference, then your organization is not "God's visible organization". Pick one.

Anyone claiming to speak for God cannot afford to make and then reinforce wild speculations hundreds of times year after year as the Watchtower Society has done. Or better yet, mere humans should not claim to speak for God. Isn't that so?

> "We have not the gift of prophecy."
> (January 1883, page 425)
> Therefore, if The Watchtower is not inspired of God, then how much
> less so am I. Nor would we have our writings reverenced or regarded
> as infallible."
> (December 15, 1896, page 306)
> "We have not the gift of prophecy."
> December 15, 1896, page 306

Perhaps in 1896 they were more honest then they came to be later in 1940 and 1968 and 1995. If it held true that The Watchtower is fallible and without the gift of prophecy, then:

1) By what right does it claim to be God's visible organization as opposed to an interesting bible research association?

2) If there is no divine inspiration for the Witness Governing Body, no gift of prophecy in effect, then why should anyone believe Watchtower teachings are any better than, say, Lutheran teachings?

> The brothers preparing these publications are not infallible. Their
> writings are not inspired as are those of Paul and the other Bible
> writers".
> February 15, 1981, page 19.

Then the church has no legitimate authority over the lives of rank and file Witnesses; yet it does exercise such authority constantly. What is it called when an organization exercises authority which does not rightly belong to it? Presumptuousness.

> People are not capable of slaying each other spiritually; and if
> they were, is that what you would wish to do?

> In a word YES! YOU ARE MY ENEMY,YOU ARE A ENEMY OF THE TRUTH AND
> MUST BE SLAIN !!

Thanks for clarifying your intentions there. Very helpful.

> I'm onto you more than you realize.
> Mate in 1,my next move is CHECKMATE !

You have lost this argument, by failing to provide any substantial counter-arguments, yet you respond with an abundance of boring dramatic posturing and repeating the same points over and over as if you were not heard; and ask me to prove the same points over and over as if you did not hear me.

What effect do you think you have created in the minds of readers, besides simply confirming the unreasonable dogmatic mindset they already believed you had? Are you tired of this yet?

Here's what's going to happen...I'm going to mark your next message as "One follow-up too many" because this exchange has demonstrated no grace nor reasonableness, and because you are not presenting any evidence to support your case; so your next question will not even be published.

Then you're going to write another follow up, outraged that I did not allow your emotional tirade (which was meaningful to you and only you) to be published further in my column. In it you will probably say "CHECKMATE", convinced of your own victory within your mind, even though you have presented no counter evidence, because you are wearing filters that prevent you from seeing all sides of the issue, having dispensed with your critical thinking faculties years ago, in favor of dogged devotion to a man-made organization.

Nobody cares. This is not a cosmic battle of Good vs. Evil. It is a pathetic high-control organization that's losing the battle to control minds and destroy families in the Internet age.

I will keep on providing an alternative view because it helps people (which they have told me many times), a view which your organization would like to suppress, and readers will keep on making up their minds. Let's just try to salvage a bit of grace, shall we?

Best wishes,
AndrewXJW