Expert: Andrew - 8/20/2008

Question
QUESTION: Hi,
I'm nineteen and from England.

About 3 months ago I met a girl (17 years of age), we went on a few dates, yet she told her parents we were just friends and I had no idea why. (Until more recently)

Things were going great we mutually agreed we were boyfriend and girlfriend; we enjoyed spending every moment together... cinema, bowling, pool, going on walks...

During one of our dates at the cinema I pulled out a St. Christopher pendant I had in my wallet as I was looking for change, she asked if I believed in God, I simply said "I believe in something, something better than us, what it is I don't know. What about you?"
She replied with "I'm studying to be a Jehovah's Witness, but I’ve not been baptised as one yet."
She went on to tell me that her parents are also Jehovah's witnesses (At this point I didn't really know much about what JW's were).

I told her to tell her parents that we were boyfriend and girlfriend (As I don't like secrets and thought we was old enough to decide what we want to do).

I got a text that night "I've told them, they're not happy."

I didn't think much of it as we had already arranged to see each other the following day; soon as we left her house she began to cry, sobbing, "My mum and dad won't let me see you anymore." We carried on walking and she began to explain "They think I’m going to get hurt." etc.
We carried on walking, we must have been 2 hours, and we both thought this was the last time we would see each other as you can imagine.

I went home and cried, after thinking about the situation for 2 hours I decided I would drive to her house and talk to her father and mother, as I was confused to why this was happening.

They invited me inside and said "We just think she’s too young to settle down, we want her to get a career on track first." That was the main thing to it all, a 'career' but as I’ve read up on Jehovah's witnesses I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s because I’m not one.
I also convinced them to let me see their daughter even if it was just as a ‘friend’, but we’ve both exchanged mutual feelings of love and affection since and before this.

I asked my girlfriend if she thought it had anything to do with her religion and she said no. I told her I’d go kingdom hall if it meant we could be together.
I guess I’m just asking for you advice, is there any way I can date their daughter without becoming a Jehovah’s Witness and if not how should I approach her parents telling them I’m willing to go Kingdom Hall if it means I can be with her daughter? Or will this just go sour also?
Kind regards.
X


ANSWER: Dear Nathan,

I'm so sorry for your grief. You didn't deserve any of this.

> I told her to tell her parents that we were boyfriend and
> girlfriend (As I don't like secrets and thought we was old enough
> to decide what we want to do).

You were proceeding under the assumption that you and your girlfriend's family were members of the same culture with similar social sensibilities. Little did you know that her family is seceding into a quite separate and distinct culture.

> "My mum and dad won't let me see you anymore."

I understand. They no doubt feel that as a non-Witness you cannot support her in her progress as a Witness, and will probably derail her progress, which is more important to them than family, freedom, or even life itself. (They're right, you would, it's bad for her.)

> They invited me inside and said "We just think she’s too young to
> settle down, we want her to get a career on track first."

Based on your girlfriend's phrasing, that she is "studying to become" a Witness, not having been raised as one, I suspect her entire family have only recently become Witnesses, although the parents may be slightly ahead of your girlfriend in their progress. If they only recently became Witnesses, they are being selective about disclosing which of two valid reasons (in their minds) to tell you about.

If they have been Witnesses for some time, but were being patient with their daughter, they are simply telling you what they expect you might understand. The real reason, as you already suspect, has nothing to do with her career. In their mind, the problem is that you are a non-Witness, clear and simple.

> ...as I’ve read up on Jehovah's witnesses I’ve come to the
> conclusion that it’s because I’m not one.

Exactly.

> I asked my girlfriend if she thought it had anything to do with her
> religion and she said no.

That's a lie. I don't know if the lie is coming from your girlfriend, or her parents. It may or may not be a malicious one. Witnesses often lie to themselves (tragically), so when they lie to others, it is sometimes habitual and almost unintentional.

It is not possible to twist our minds into pretzels to accommodate mind games like the Witnesses constantly play on each other without lying to ourselves. All sorts of illness and tragedy come from lying to ourselves. It is the thing to be avoided in this life more than anything else, in my view.

> I told her I’d go kingdom hall if it meant we could be together.

It won't help. Relationships and family ties will always be less important than their almighty dogma. If you attend meetings with her at the Kingdom Hall but do not become a Witness, it will not be enough to earn their favor. If you join her in becoming a Witness, you will still have to make your relationships unimportant in comparison to "God's Will", which actually means the will of the leaders of the cult.

And even if it did help, you would be sacrificing too much. Please make sure you fully understand what you would be giving up before you do something like this. You would have to learn to lie to yourself and suppress your true feelings. Is a permanent loss of your freedom of mind, permanent destruction of your family ties, permanently losing all your friends (having to make new ones), and contorting your mind into a pretzel to accomodate extensive mind games worth it?

Is it worth it to lose your own soul in order to gain a shell of who your girlfriend once was?

You would be seceding into a seperatist culture just as she has. Everything that has made sense to you so far in life would have to be thrown out the window. And the worst part is that it would kind of make sense to you. They offer a prize that is too good to be true. How far will you go to entertain a fantasy? No matter how much you may love her, the sacrifice is too much.

Don't imagine you are too strong. Lots of men make that mistake. They pretend to go along with Witness culture and think they will never become Witnesses themselves. Even the most strong minded are at risk, until they really understand the dynamics of cult mind control.

> I guess I’m just asking for you advice, is there any way I can date
> their daughter without becoming a Jehovah’s Witness

Not unless she ceases progressing to become one. If you manage to show her she is on a path of lies, she may join you again; but she would lose her parents in the process. If she has been conditioned by Witness mind for a long period of time, she would also be full of mind games that would damage your relationship over time, and would be losing all her friends by leaving the Witnesses. Is it worth it to her? Would it be good for her?

You might be doing her a favor. It would certainly be better for her to open her eyes and begin to see what's real than continue to live a life of lies. But family is important. Losing her parents would be a great loss for her. You would never have healthy relations with your in-laws. Your children would never have healthy relations with their grandparents. Would you really want to do this?

If you decide it's worth the effort, there are no guarantees that it will work. It will take a lot of study and care and patience, perhaps years worth of patience. You would put your relationship with your girlfriend at risk by challenging the lies she is being taught (even if you do it very carefully). You would put the health of your young family at risk by not doing so.

As hard as it may be to hear, because your heart is already attached, the easiest long term approach may just be to walk away as a wiser man who will seek to avoid this pitfall next time.

> ...how should I approach her parents telling them I’m willing to go
> Kingdom Hall if it means I can be with her daughter? Or will this
> just go sour also?

If you really want to go ahead with this, there is one plan that is most risky and most uncertain, but at least has a CHANCE of success...be careful....

1) Temporarily put your relationship with your girlfriend on hold, and only see her very rarely or not at all. Let the Witnesses believe that you are mainly interested in their God and their religion, and their daughter is only an afterthought.

2) Quickly read/study as much as you can about how cult mind control works, become an expert on it so you can not only protect yourself but arm yourself to skillfully navigate the complex web you will be entering.

3) Ask your girlfriend's parents for a home bible study, pretending to be interested in becoming a Witness. Do not settle for another teacher. Insist that her parents teach you. As you learn about Witness dogma from them, you can very subtly ask thought provoking questions that will make them reconsider what they are teaching you. It must be VERY subtle so that they do not raise their defenses and give up on you. You are putting yourself at great risk by doing this, because most people are far more vulnerable to Witness tricks than they think.

4) Eventually if the parents leave the Witnesses, they may likewise bring their daughter with them, and all three can begin a recovery process and come back to their senses. Then you will be free to pursue a sensible relationship with your girlfriend again with a hope of healthy family relations ahead.

This approach takes tremendous patience and investment and skill and courage; but you are entering a very complex maze of cobwebs. This approach I suggest (aside from walking away) is more likely to work and achieve a desirable end result than any other approach I know of.

Whatever direction you decide to go, please make an informed decision. Let me help you make informed decisions. Please let me know if I can help further.

Best wishes,
AndrewXJW

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Thank you for the fast and sharp reply Andrew.

Just a few more questions as I’m trying to come to all this, and a few more facts to help you give me advice.

1) Her parents have been witnesses for some time and from what I’ve gathered her father doesn’t have any family (I don’t know the reason). And her mothers parents “used to be Jehovah’s witnesses” according to my girlfriend, and yes they still talk, visit each other and get on.

2) She told me she hadn’t been baptised/christened as one, she told me that she has a bible study once a week for 30 minutes (She said she does this to make her mum happy).
She doesn’t attend any meetings (her mother goes most nights).
She told me she would be baptised/christened as a witness once she knew enough/old enough to decide whether it was right for her (her words).

3) Also I know my girlfriend has been told its her career as she’s told me “Once I’ve left college and got a job they can’t stop us seeing each other can they” -- is this another pretentious lie she has been told?

4) What mind games do witnesses play on each other?

5) So should I show her this conversation?
Should I talk to her about her religion being the underlying truth behind why we can’t see each other? (I’m not going to tell her she must quit her religion, that’s her own choice).
Should I confront my girlfriends parents about this in front of my girlfriend? (So she can see the truth to why we can’t be together).
Should I confront her parents alone and ask if religion is the real reason? (And I’ll even record this and give it my girlfriend because if we break up over her parents wishes, I want her to know the truth to why).

6) When they first told us we could only see each other as friends I said to my girlfriend we had 3 options,
a) Stop seeing each other
b) Just be friends
c) When we do see each other, we’re more than friends.
She chose C this mean something?

7) How can I protect myself from the witness dogma? Are there any web links you could give me?

Regards x

ANSWER: Dear Nathan,

> 1) Her parents have been witnesses for some time and from what I’ve
> gathered her father doesn’t have any family (I don’t know the
> reason). And her mothers parents “used to be Jehovah’s witnesses”
> according to my girlfriend, and yes they still talk, visit each
> other and get on.

Yet you said your girlfriend had said she was only studying to become a Witness. It's unusual for parents who have been Witnesses for a long time to have a child who is only beginning.

> 2) She told me she hadn’t been baptised/christened as one, she told
> me that she has a bible study once a week for 30 minutes (She said
> she does this to make her mum happy). She doesn’t attend any
> meetings (her mother goes most nights). She told me she would be
> baptised/christened as a witness once she knew enough/old enough to
> decide whether it was right for her (her words).

It could be good news that "she does this to make her mum happy". In other words, it may be that your girlfriend doesn't really believe in Witness teachings, and will escape from them at her earliest opportunity. Since she is 17, I imagine that should be possible somewhat soon. By Witness standards, 17 is old enough to be baptized. It is common among Witnesses to be baptized at age 12 to 14; and eyebrows begin to raise for children growing up among Witnesses if not baptized by age 15.

On the other hand, it would be bad news if your girlfriend considers it a matter of course that she would be baptized once she knows enough to do so.

In most localities, the Witnesses host meetings only 3 nights a week; it's good that your girlfriend is not yet interested in attending.

> 3) Also I know my girlfriend has been told its her career as she’s
> told me “Once I’ve left college and got a job they can’t stop us
> seeing each other can they” -- is this another pretentious lie she
> has been told?

I'm not familiar with English law, but in the US, persons reaching the age of 18 years are no longer subject to their parent's wishes and can do as they please. After that age, parents have no legal authority but can manipulate by offering gifts or by offering to pay the adult child's expenses.

It seems unlikely to me that her parents would try to mislead her about legal adulthood; however, it would be very common for her to be unusually childlike for her age, that is, psychologically dependent on her parents to a greater degree than other girls her age.

> 4) What mind games do witnesses play on each other?

They believe that their organization speaks on behalf of God, even though it receives no messages from God. They believe that everything that the organization says is to be embraced and obeyed as if it came from God.

I do not mean in the sense of any protestant denomination, believing that they are doing their best to interpret and uphold God's wishes; no rather the Witness organization promotes a mystical view that God actually directs people in the present by means of the organization, even though they admit there is no mechanism for communication. It is a complex system of implication and plausible deniability which ensnares the mind and traps the spirit into believing that to oppose the organization means to oppose God; and to simply stop attending means becoming an enemy of God. "Mystical manipulation" is one of the Lifton Eight Marks, which is practiced by all cults.

Since the organization is actually run by men, and makes mistakes on a regular basis, it is hard for Witnesses to reconcile mistakes by the organization with the concept of the infallibility of God (since they identify the two as one and the same); so they begin to play mind games upon themselves trying to reconcile these dischordant appearances. Whenever someone plays mind games on himself, he cannot help playing the same game on others. One cannot tell others the truth without first admitting it to oneself.

Robert J. Lifton was an early cult researcher, who outlined Eight Marks of a Mind Control Cult. These are dishonest tactics which cult organizations use in order to overwhelm the decision making process of individual members and erode their critical thinking faculties.

The Witnesses use all eight tactics. These are examples of the mind games they play on each other. I suggest you should thoroughly study and understand how these tactics work before exposing yourself to the Witnesses, so that you can see and consciously reject them when they try to use them on you. One cannot reject ideas that are too subtle to recognize consciously.

> 5) So should I show her this conversation?

I wouldn't recommend it, unless you're sure she has decided NOT to become a Witness. Many relationships have been terminated by non-Witness partners challenging their partner's beliefs carelessly, that is, before you are prepared to do so skillfully. It is very easy to say the wrong thing.

> Should I talk to her about her religion being the underlying truth
> behind why we can’t see each other?

If you can do so briefly, it might be effective to explain to her that you believe this is the case. If she asks how you know this, and you tell her you have consulted with former Witnesses and read online materials about Witnesses, this is likely to raise her defenses if she believes in the Witnesses. The first thing they are taught in their indoctrination ("home bible study") program is that, since they are now supposedly beginning to learn the real truth about God, the Devil doesn't like it and will give them a hard time. In the mind of the Witnesses, I am an agent of the Devil because I left their organization and verbally oppose them. She is likely to think you are being influenced by the Devil if you tell her you have communicated with me.

I have violated the number one rule of Jehovah's Witnesses. I have committed their number one "sin": Thinking for myself. They call it "independent thinking". They teach that this is what made the Devil evil, thinking for himself, and that any person who thinks for himself makes himself a child of the Devil by doing so. This is very convenient for cult leaders, as if they are "wrong" to think for themselves, then they will naturally be looking for someone to do their thinking for them. The only problem with that is quite simply: GOD DOESN'T COMMUNICATE WITH THEM to offer an alternative to "human thinking"; and therefore ALL Witness teachings represent "human thinking", although they won't admit this.

> (I’m not going to tell her she must quit her religion, that’s her
> own choice).

That's very open-minded of you; however, Jehovah's Witnesses are not a religion as you know it. It wouldn't do any good to tell her she must quit, anyway; so I'm not suggesting you should. However, they don't deserve the benefit of the doubt you give them in this, and certainly won't return the favor.

> Should I confront my girlfriends parents about this in front of my
> girlfriend? (So she can see the truth to why we can’t be together).

I really doubt that will help. By doing so, you would be carrying the hope that the parents would slip and admit something in front of the daughter, perhaps in the heat of the moment. You might plan to ask them pointed questions and insist on an answer. However, they are taught 5 hours a week to be masterful at manipulating conversations, and are likely more skilled at it than you are. So I think this plan would be likely to fail, and in the attempt you would be asking your girlfriend to choose. If she is not ready to choose, you may lose her.

Further, do not underestimate your girlfriend's loyalty to her parents and (if she is favorable toward the Witnesses) to the Witness organization. People can dismiss very clear and overwhelming evidence if they want to when they are backed into a corner. Our species is not nearly as rational as we sometimes like to think we are.

> Should I confront her parents alone and ask if religion is the real
> reason? (And I’ll even record this and give it my girlfriend
> because if we break up over her parents wishes, I want her to know
> the truth to why).

Religion is the real reason. There is no doubt in my mind. The Witnesses teach that it is wrong to date unless you plan to marry, and that it is wrong to marry a non-Witness. They cite a scriptural verse which compares such a marriage to yoking together an ox with an ass. (In agriculture, such a mismatch would be abusive to both animals.) If your girlfriend's parents are anything like typical Witnesses, religion is most definitely the real reason. If you have doubts in your mind, I suggest you research this issue further online.

Do not expect your girlfriend's parents to give you satisfaction, or to admit anything honestly. How can they be honest with you when they are not even honest with themselves? How can they even view you as deserving an honest answer when their religion, in fact, teaches that you are a member of a lesser class? They believe God (at any moment) is about to kill you as a member of a corrupt godless world. Within their psychology, this most definitely gives them a sense of superiority over you, and puts you as a non-Witness in a subhuman class (although they won't admit it straightforwardly). They call non-Witnesses "worldly" and "goatlike". These code words in Witness jargon mean "morally corrupt" and "spiritually bedarkened" and "knowing no better".

> 6) When they first told us we could only see each other as friends
> I said to my girlfriend we had 3 options,
> a) Stop seeing each other
> b) Just be friends
> c) When we do see each other, we’re more than friends.
> She chose C this mean something?

Sounds like she isn't interested in obeying her parents. Good for her. Normally I think it is important for children to obey their parents; however, at age 17 she is hardly a child anymore. It puzzles me that they treat a 17-year-old daughter as if she were a child.

However, cutting ties is not desirable either. If they are typical Witnesses, and if she openly defies them, they may disown her. Witnesses often do this to their children. Since your girlfriend has not been baptized as a Witness, their rules technically don't apply to her, and they know it. It is much less likely that they will disown her because of the fact that she isn't baptized.

She doesn't actually put herself "on the hook" having to follow their many rules until she gets baptized. If she gains her independence, and begins her adult life, without ever having been baptized as a Witness, this is about the best eventuality you could hope for.

In view of the fact that she only accepts the bible study "to make her mum happy", and in view of the fact that she still wants to be "more than friends" despite her parent's prohibition, it seems she is still thinking for herself. Good for her. The Witness "bible" study program will try to coerce her gradually to stop thinking for herself; but if she is not taking it seriously, perhaps they will not succeed in sinking their hooks into her.

> 7) How can I protect myself from the witness dogma? Are there any
> web links you could give me?

There is no quick and easy lesson. You must be prepared to do real research on this, as a cursory reading will leave you at risk, and actually make things worse because you will become complacent if you think you know the topic after a cursory reading.

You can do an internet search under the keywords "Lifton Eight Marks" to get information such as I describe above. You might search for "Releasing the Bonds" by Steven Hassan at a bookseller.

Best wishes,
AndrewXJW

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Thank you once again as your comments are helping me deal with this myself, I felt like this was all somehow my fault but obviously is not.
My girlfriend is very dependent on her parents, I asked her what would be the worst thing if she stood up to her parents, lose her car? But she was more scared in losing her parents (And in my head I know if I murdered someone, my parents would still be there so this was hard for me to comprehend).
This girl I can really see myself having a future with, but at this moment I’m stuck with a moral decision,
Do I just go along with seeing her behind her parents back and thus tackling problems when they arise? When she has a career tell them were going to try our relationship ‘again’. And tackle that problem when it arises?
Or do I confront her now about the whole witness thing, do I tell her what I’ve found and researched, because theoretically this would be ideal for a real future. Because it would either all ends now, or maybe she’ll choose not to get baptised and as you say technically they can’t disown her.
In my eyes I feel that anyone with religious beliefs just want something to believe in, I believe something out there must have created us/this as it’s all too perfect.
Firstly to create a mammal/species and then by accident they can reproduce themselves?
I could go on and on but I won’t, I believe in something, but what I have no idea, so as you can imagine I’m having a hard time dealing with religion over love.
I think ultimately I want to open her eyes about witnesses, if I lose her I can say I tried, if I don’t even better.
Is there any advice you can give me to do this or help me prepare to do so?
I’m not going to go all guns blazing “Your cult/religion is wrong”
Who am I to judge what’s right and wrong surely that’s as individuals to interpret.
Even if we don’t last as a couple I want her to live a life and from the sounds of it that’s quite hard if not impossible when you are a witness, I want to tell/show her the sacrifices she’ll be making if she gets baptised.

There is just one thing I can’t get my head around
From what I’ve gathered her brother who is my age fancies someone from work and they’re not like this with him, also I’m sure my girlfriend told me he went out and had promiscuous sex with someone.

Sorry if I’m going on and on with these comments and questions.

Regards x


Answer
Dear Nathan,

> Thank you once again as your comments are helping me deal with this
> myself, I felt like this was all somehow my fault but obviously is
> not.

I'm glad you're seeing that. You did nothing to bring this on, you just wandered randomly into the wrong cave.

> My girlfriend is very dependent on her parents, I asked her what
> would be the worst thing if she stood up to her parents, lose her
> car? But she was more scared in losing her parents (And in my head
> I know if I murdered someone, my parents would still be there so
> this was hard for me to comprehend).

Exactly. You've hit the nail on the head. Witnesses attract judgemental people and then reinforce their judgementalness. Love is always conditional among them, but that is not love. Love is by nature unconditional; and if one applies conditions, one is practicing something else, not love. So in effect Witnesses live their entire lives divorced from Love and think they're experts on God, the greatest mind game of all.

Members never have a solid emotional foundation, because their family, friends, community, and even God (in their minds), constantly stand at the ready to abandon and betray them if they don't cross every T and dot every I exactly so. You can't imagine what a fragile psychological house of cards that creates, even for those who conform perfectly in order to "earn" love. The most compelling thing that Witnesses are absolutely starved for, is unconditional love--the concept (alien to them) that someone could love them just for who they are, and there's nothing they can do to terminate that abundant inflowing stream of love.

If you come from a family that practices unconditional love, this may be what attracts your girlfriend to you. As you learn how to skillfully navigate cult mind, you may be able to demonstrate to her by means of your unconditional love what God really is, and truly save her life in that way. (Is that your destiny? I do not know.) God is Love. But the Witnesses have no tangible experience of that. Experiencing it through you could become a huge eye-opener for her. Perhaps it is already becoming so.

> This girl I can really see myself having a future with, but at this
> moment I’m stuck with a moral decision, Do I just go along with
> seeing her behind her parents back and thus tackling problems when
> they arise?

Can they be tackled before they arise? If we who see more deeply into the situation try to make others see before they are ready, it sometimes does not work. There is such a thing as the right time, the time when the situation becomes ripe to do and say certain things. Sometimes we have to hold our words watching for the right time. This is not morally ill-advised; rather it takes great moral courage.

> Or do I confront her now about the whole witness thing, do I tell
> her what I’ve found and researched, because theoretically this
> would be ideal for a real future.

You mean always speaking the truth is a solid foundation for a family, and therefore doing it now and always would be best for your family? Yes, I agree (well perhaps not always, as restraint may be called for at times).

But, aside from the theoretical "best" policy, remember this: You have chosen a woman who doesn't have a great relationship to truth; so will you be able to always speak the truth and succeed? I doubt it, not even if you want to. Those who speak the truth before it's time get shot down. People can only hear what they're ready to hear, especially when they have an impaired relationship to truth as Witnesses do.

> Because it would either all ends now, or maybe she’ll choose not to
> get baptised and as you say technically they can’t disown her.

I'm glad you understand. Yes, there is great risk to letting the shit hit the fan now; yet sometimes we have to take great risk in order to have something worthwhile. Based on your new information, I withdraw all recommendations. I just don't know the best course of action, and am only trying to give you food for thought and insider information so you can choose this delicate matter in accord with your own values and first-hand knowledge of the situation.

> In my eyes I feel that anyone with religious beliefs just want
> something to believe in, I believe something out there must have
> created us/this as it’s all too perfect. Firstly to create a
> mammal/species and then by accident they can reproduce themselves?

I believe in God too. But remember, the Witnesses are not a religion as you know it. There is much more going on among them than teaching religious beliefs and doing ritual to celebrate those beliefs. That's the typical church scenario, right?

But going far beyond the typical church Witnesses additionally are social separatists who practice cult mind control and control every detail of the private lives of members. Once a member gets baptized, there is no such thing as a private personal decision beyond the authority of the cult. The cult requires all the members' free time be used to support the cult. They do this so that the members will not have time to think about what's going on, in order to keep critical thinking faculties dormant. This is not a church as you know it.

I never attack the spiritual beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses or anyone else for the very reason you have stated. People need whatever form of faith they may have. Rather I oppose the political, social, and psychological abuse Witnesses practice. I find it very telling that they cannot see any difference between their organizational policy (which in most organizations would be boring details) and their spiritual beliefs; so when I verbally oppose one, they imagine I have attacked the other. Their politics and their beliefs are tightly intertwined BECAUSE their organization is seen as having mystical authority. This is another sign that they are a cult, not a religion, as you know it.

> I could go on and on but I won’t, I believe in something, but what
> I have no idea, so as you can imagine I’m having a hard time
> dealing with religion over love.

There is nothing in your experience that prepared you for this. It is completely alien. Common sense does not apply. Using your natural tender human heart to battle a complex web of lies may be the wrong tool, or it may require courage more immense than you imagined you were capable of. You may find you are more capable than you thought.

> I think ultimately I want to open her eyes about witnesses, if I
> lose her I can say I tried, if I don’t even better. Is there any
> advice you can give me to do this or help me prepare to do so?

Read the book "Releasing the Bonds" by Steven Hassan before you approach her with this. It gives specific advice about how to do what you're proposing to do. You won't know until you get into it how deeply she is indoctrinated, but once you have the knowledge this book offers, you will be able to navigate so much better in trying to "open her eyes about the Witnesses".

> I’m not going to go all guns blazing “Your cult/religion is wrong”
> Who am I to judge what’s right and wrong surely that’s as
> individuals to interpret.

Regarding spiritual matters, I agree. People must decide on spiritual truth for themselves. However, if you had seen the atrocities I have seen, minds contorted and enslaved, families destroyed, children put out on the street, betrayals, lies; it would not be so hard for you to declare the socio-political behaviors and organization policies of the Witnesses as "wrong".

I am the expert and I call them "wrong", armed with an abundance of experience and evidence to back it up.

> Even if we don’t last as a couple I want her to live a life and
> from the sounds of it that’s quite hard if not impossible when you
> are a witness, I want to tell/show her the sacrifices she’ll be
> making if she gets baptised.

I hear your wisdom. Trust your heart on this.

But not on how to communicate with those under the influence of cult mind control. Such communication is very difficult to do successfully. Your heart does not know how without specific guidance.

> There is just one thing I can’t get my head around From what I’ve
> gathered her brother who is my age fancies someone from work and
> they’re not like this with him, also I’m sure my girlfriend told me
> he went out and had promiscuous sex with someone.

This seems further evidence that the parents have not been Witnesses for long, or at least have not been devout as Witnesses for long. There are some who hang around the edges of the Witness organization. Your girlfriend's family may be one of them. For those who are only hangers-on around the fringes of Witnesses, it would be expected that mainstream social behaviors would sometimes take precedence over subculture social behaviors, such as being less concerned about the sexual behaviors of a son as opposed to a daughter.

If your girlfriend's family is in fact only tangentially involved with the Witnesses, you'll have less of a challenge than some. I hope so. But still please read the book so you will be forearmed with the information you need, in case you need it.

Your girlfriend's brother's experience with promiscuity is an example of the number 1, most common reason Witnesses are expelled and family ties permanently cut off. This happens VERY frequently, in tens of thousands of cases per year. Other churches excommunicate extremely rarely; but Witnesses do it constantly.

I suggest letting sleeping dogs lie in her brother's case, especially if he is baptized as a Witness. It is very common for people growing up around Witness influence to lead double lives, that is, to be who they really are around non-Witnesses, then pretend to be someone else entirely around Witnesses. They are pressured to conform to a situation that is very difficult to conform to, and threatened with extraordinary loss for non-conformance; so it is understandable to me.

> Sorry if I’m going on and on with these comments and questions.

Not at all. I'm glad I can offer you some perspective so that you can make an informed decision. Be careful. Good luck. You're on the right track.

Best wishes,
AndrewXJW